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Old 16-07-2018, 23:53   #76
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

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Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
...With some jib and an adjustable bridle, broad reaching was smooth as silk, like someone turned the wind down by 10 knots....
This is also what I would do.


Heave to appears to me on a catamaran not safe in a stronger storm because all waves have certain abeam-component, which can turn a catamaran over.


So far I experienced only once about 35 kn with a beginner crew and decided to get all sails down and run. It was also a test for my boat as I had it only for a few month.

Running barepole was very smooth and the boat only accelerated to 2 - 2 1/2 kn. Watching her for a while I pulled out the genoa a little bit, changed course so the wind came from 150 deg and had a very smooth ride into a bay which gave as wind protection.


From that experience I would employ any "slow down system" only at the stern. However I saw in a youtube video also employing such system on the bow.


Now I am interested in replies concerning employment at stern or at bow of a catamaran and the reason for each possibility.
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Old 17-07-2018, 00:23   #77
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

I haven’t been there, but I think that any plan that involves getting out on deck to muck with heavy equipment when the weather turns from very ugly to terrible is not a good plan. Moving a drogue from bow to stern is just a non-starter if the conditions are bad enough that your drogue is not working.
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Old 17-07-2018, 00:28   #78
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

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Originally Posted by Sojourner View Post
Ciao! Let's say you're right (which if you speak from personal experience I have no reason to doubt)... and let's say they work equally well just differently (the Coast Guard report defo does not recommend chutes and does recommend series drogues as their conclusion).... Again, the factor on my mind is once the seas are dangerous enough that you need to go to a chute from running off, you gotta turn, then probably go to the bow to deploy. And as hard as a JSD is to retrieve, I've read chutes can be much much harder. So all things being equal, the stern drogue still seems to win out.... ?
Well, I do heave to to set it, but no leaving the cockpit, I rig it before leaving port. I dont recomend a para anchor off the bow only, as my boat sails out from behind it and tacks violently. As I said earlier (in this thread??) I use a bridle - the pardy method. The boat sits as stationary as possible, making only a little leeway. The loads on the gear are much less than many expect, provided you stay behind the parachute! Breakers dont really get you, the force is dissipated up by the chute, 100m odd to weather. My experience is in winds of 70 odd, gusting 90, and seas up to 14m. I'm pretty happy with the parachute solution.
I have no issues with a JSD, and would use one if I wanted to go downwind.
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Old 17-07-2018, 00:39   #79
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Here I thought the JSD was a slowing device, and the parachute essentially a stopping device. I thought the JSD was very similar to a gale rider, biggest difference is in the gale rider all your eggs are in one basket, whereas the JSD spreads the eggs out in many baskets.
Neither can completely stop of course there has to be a little movement to keep the chutes open.
I think now you have read the report it should be clear that the galerider has much less drag than the series drogue. Although they both hang off the stern they are designed to work in quite different ways.

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Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
I chose heave to and particularly NOT a sea anchor.

Here is how: The sea anchor and the boat do not move in synch, the line goes slack between waves, then the boat can move astern on the next wave which results in strain on the rudder and BIG shock when the boat fetches up against the sea anchor. This is why many people have said they were happy when the sea anchor finally broke away.

We've sailed a lighter weight fin keel spade rudder boat for of 55,000 ocean miles over the last 20+ years. We never carried a sea anchor or a drogue (expense and lack of space and actually I was never convinced either was a great idea). And we never felt that we wished we had one.

We have heaved-to twice. We hove-to the first time basically as an experiment during heavy weather north of New Zealand to see if it was an option for us at that time (two days, 50+kts, significant waves). We'd been sailing upwind with small jib and three reefs but the boat was going too fast and the pounding as we came off the waves was un-endurable for us. We found that heaving-to was a very viable option if we wanted to use it but we chose to keep sailing, fore reaching under main alone, with the motor idling in gear to keep some speed on for steerage, and keep the heave-to option as a last resort. The wind vane was steering. This kept us progressing toward our destination and worked for 24 hours, then the wind freed and the conditions moderated and we resumed sailing.

A second time we hove-to was in the Bashi Channel between Taiwan and Luzon (50+ kts, huge waves). The boat had been sailing very slowly upwind with main alone and got too close to the wind and then stopped and knocked backwards by a big wave, at which point the wind vane was broken and unusable. So we hove-to until morning when we could start hand steering. It worked fine. (Our autopilot is not strong enough for those conditions)

So our strategy is this:

1. Stay out of storms. It is not hard if you are choosy about where and when you sail. (we've never been anywhere near hurricane strength winds, we've neve been in any conditions when we couldn't move about on deck to handle sails or when we couldn't continue sailing.)

2. Reduce sail and keep sailing if you can, upwind is much better (because it is slower) than downwind.

3. Heave-to if you need to. If our boat can do it, probably any boat can.

4. Rig warps with anything you can put on them if you feel you need to go downwind under bare poles.

5. Spend less time obsessing about how to survive a hurricane and more about how to avoid one and how to sail when the conditions are bad.

Thanks, I appreciate your input. Wings is very similar to my 40 foot Yena Peterson. Its great to hear what works on her.
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Old 17-07-2018, 02:00   #80
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

when I first read about the JDS I became curious enough to read everything that he wrote about it before he died.



Don began his explanation with a comparison between traditional sailing vessels of the nineteenth century and the modern yacht. Using the principle of the feather flights on an arrow used in archery. His opinion was that the old tradition of deploying off the bow in traditional sailing ships was because there was more rigging at the stern plus keel and dead wood aft that would act in the water like Fletching which is the fin-shaped aerodynamic stabilization device attached on arrows, crossbow bolts or darts,


Whereas the modern yacht has a fin keel amid ships and the mast ahead of it. thus the fletching effect is more effective when the resistance is applied at the stern.


The total length of the drogue (usually over 200 feet total) is intended to be spread aft over several waves. and the 20 feet of chain at the end to be a weight to keep it deep. He described the breaking waves to have a speed of 20 to 30 knots. That would try to pick the vessel up and drive it forward so that it would fall down the wave and be destroyed by pitch poling in the trough.


With the over 100 small cones deployed so far behind the vessel its forward motion would smoothly load the rope and the resistance provided by the cones would hold it back allowing the wave to pass without taking the vessel with it. Thus it is intended as a stopping device not a navigation aid. Drifting from the point of deployment reported to one to one and a half knots per hour. Thus the advice given was to take down all sail, close the hatches and get some sleep.
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Old 17-07-2018, 03:04   #81
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

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The way I understand it is that if a wave breaks that a boat happens to be riding on it is the equivalent of being dropped out of the air the exact same height as the wave and landing on concrete. This is why rudders and masts snap. The whole concept scares the bejezus outa me and so I bought a JSD as these allegedly prevent that from occurring.
Thankfully if you sail the seas in season and watch the weather then the chances of seeing a serious storm are probably very small. However, getting caught in a short gale for a couple of days more probable. Being able to stop the boat safely for a few hours rest or a meal far more likely to be needed.

Interesting article:

https://www.pbo.co.uk/gear/which-dro...-you-buy-25543


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Old 17-07-2018, 03:05   #82
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

There is a large JSD on UK E bay at the moment for anyone interested. 7 days to go.

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Old 17-07-2018, 03:09   #83
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

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There is a large JSD on UK E bay at the moment for anyone interested. 7 days to go.

Pete
Too late, just ordered a JSD from Ace, customized for the boat. I'm feeling good about it
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Old 17-07-2018, 05:54   #84
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

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Any thoughts as to whether or not this boat will heave to?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater
Facebook login pages are known to heave to gracefully.

Please place your links on publicly available servers. Or else just paste the image in your post.

Cheers,
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Old 17-07-2018, 06:18   #85
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

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Facebook login pages are known to heave to gracefully.

Please place your links on publicly available servers. Or else just paste the image in your post.

Cheers,
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LOL thats what I THOUGHT I was doing!

The system won't let me paste the image, so lets see if this works.

Click image for larger version

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Old 17-07-2018, 07:02   #86
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

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Originally Posted by coastalexplorer View Post
when I first read about the JDS I became curious enough to read everything that he wrote about it before he died.



Don began his explanation with a comparison between traditional sailing vessels of the nineteenth century and the modern yacht. Using the principle of the feather flights on an arrow used in archery. His opinion was that the old tradition of deploying off the bow in traditional sailing ships was because there was more rigging at the stern plus keel and dead wood aft that would act in the water like Fletching which is the fin-shaped aerodynamic stabilization device attached on arrows, crossbow bolts or darts,


Whereas the modern yacht has a fin keel amid ships and the mast ahead of it. thus the fletching effect is more effective when the resistance is applied at the stern.

I had not read that about him or his theory, however it is why I believe my boat needs to be bow into the waves and wind, cause I’m not really modern in that respect, she is a full keel Boat with way more windage aft than is desirable for sailing performance, but it is great for living performance.
So to use the Archers perspective, my boat has fletching suitable for a broadhead.
However I agree that a “modern” Boat, particularly a Multi hull is different, they likely would do better with a stern drogue, plus structurally all my “windage” is designed and stressed to accept a large wind and water load from the bow, not from the stern.
Being as how most don’t intentionally sail out into a survival situation, the idea of removing all of it prior to nasty weather may not be realistic.
Although I’m considering a JSD, why not, I already have two drag devices, why not a third
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Old 17-07-2018, 07:07   #87
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

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Too late, just ordered a JSD from Ace, customized for the boat. I'm feeling good about it


If you don’t mind, what size JSD and want was the price?
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Old 17-07-2018, 07:08   #88
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

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Funny, I think I saw this boat last month or one just like it.

I think the hull and foils would suit heaving-to but the mainsail must be quite small to fit over that cabin (assuming there is a mast and a mainsail) which would affect its contribution to heaving-to and who knows what all the windage from the large cabin and flybridge would do.

You need three things to heave-to:

1. Mainsail or other sail set aft, flat, to drive the boat forward and up into the wind.
2. Headsail or other sail forward, backed (sheeted outboard) to push the bow off the wind.
3. Rudder hard alee to turn the boat back into the wind if it gets too far off and the main starts to drive the boat forward.

With these three components the boat will find a balance where it simply stops and sits there.

I see no reason why the boat (Lancer 36?) should not do this if the main is big enough to provide some drive forward.
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Old 17-07-2018, 07:37   #89
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

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You need three things to heave-to:
I think a pair of V6 200 Yamaha's on tick over would solve the problem of getting her to heavy to. Also probably easier for the owner to understand compared to a set of sails which can be a bit complicated.

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Old 17-07-2018, 08:31   #90
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

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Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear View Post
Well, I do heave to to set it, but no leaving the cockpit, I rig it before leaving port. I dont recomend a para anchor off the bow only, as my boat sails out from behind it and tacks violently. As I said earlier (in this thread??) I use a bridle - the pardy method. The boat sits as stationary as possible, making only a little leeway. The loads on the gear are much less than many expect, provided you stay behind the parachute! Breakers dont really get you, the force is dissipated up by the chute, 100m odd to weather. My experience is in winds of 70 odd, gusting 90, and seas up to 14m. I'm pretty happy with the parachute solution.
I have no issues with a JSD, and would use one if I wanted to go downwind.

Just curious...


Does your boat also yaw at anchor? How much?


This is probably a determining facor in whether a chute off the bow can work. Multihulls use a bridle and most sit very quietly at anchor. They are also light, making them easier to pull up a wave. Lift the boards and rudders (if applicable) and they would rather slide than yaw. Monohulls are more prone to yawing. This may be the major difference.
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