Is an all-in-one masthead light legal?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

I've heard (not seen) that many Beneteaus are built that way. Maybe it's legal in Europe - but not in the US or Canada.

Never seen that European builders largely only fit masthead tricolours as special orders

If the yacht has an engine conventional side lights are always fitted.

[Martkimwat]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

again A, B and C are not all needed together , so that is not the " fewest " required fixtures, in a boat that does motor as in the vast majority of yachts there is no need for side lights at the mast top

Masthead tricolour lights were approved for vessels in sailing mode, before the advent of LED lights, as they only needed one bulb thus saving on power usage, a perennial problem with sailboats, again before the advent of affordable solar panels. It could be argued that with effective LED sidelights and affordable solar panels, it is not really necessary to use a masthead tricolour light anymore for a sailing vessel, particularly as it would also remove the need for a power cable to the masthead. Anchor lights do not need to be at the masthead either and in fact are generally considered more effective time lower down, say at boom height. Perhaps it is time for a rethink of the light requirements although in fact there is nothing compelling a sailboat to use masthead lights at all, only a steaming light at about spreader height or slightly lower. I would be curious to know whether a steaming light, in conjunction with the navigation stern light, would be deemed acceptable as an anchor light?

[Martkimwat]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

I've heard (not seen) that many Beneteaus are built that way. Maybe it's legal in Europe - but not in the US or Canada.

SOLAS is International, national rules cannot override them, all countries have to comply with SOLAS. Europe is no different from the rest of the World.

[Manateeman]

See and be seen. If your navigation lights are at two meters above the waterline and you are at sea and you have one or two meter waves or swells running...and I’m on a large commercial vessel...do you think I can see you? If you have a mast tricolor and it’s above the waves, I’ll have a better chance.
Lights on the bow rail / stern rail, are nice n calm seas or harbors but offshore ?
All professional mariners want is to first...avoid collision. That means a light high enough to be seen. I honestly don’t care what light or color including strobes. I’ll call or we can figure it out, and if we are not sure, we’ll change course, slow down or even stop. The most confusing light is one that appears then disappears...as in we see it when you are on top of a wave and you disappear at the bottom.
Happy trails
The manatee crew

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Martkimwat

SOLAS is International, national rules cannot override them, all countries have to comply with SOLAS. Europe is no different from the rest of the World.

national laws can and do override SOLAS conventions, note SOLAS is not a "law", there is no such thing as international law, merely an " agreement " that signatory nations will abide by the convention

several countries have not ratified SOLAS 1974 and some are not accession or signatory countries either

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Martkimwat

SOLAS is International, national rules cannot override them, all countries have to comply with SOLAS. Europe is no different from the rest of the World.

hes only " heard " Benteaus are built that way , clearly he needs to walk around a yard or marina filled with beneteas !!

I also " heard" the moonwalk was faked !!

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by Martkimwat

SOLAS is International, national rules cannot override them, all countries have to comply with SOLAS. Europe is no different from the rest of the World.

Not true. For example, SOLAS flares are not recognized as meeting US flare requirements. Only USCG approved flares are. I had that argument (discussion?) when a USCG team boarded my Canadian boat in the US. When asked to produce my flares, I initally showed them my SOLAS package - including the big parachute flares. They were rejected as not being USCG approved. The discussion was resolved when I presented a silly little USCG approved flare pistol (for star flares) and cartridges.

I'm not saying this to be argumentative or pedantic, only to point out that SOLAS is not universal - and countries can have their own variations to the rules. As I stated in my earlier post, I just don't know if the lack of sidelights, for a sailboat with an engine, is legal in Europe or not. Your post suggests that it is not - and I accept that.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by Martkimwat

Masthead tricolour lights were approved for vessels in sailing mode, before the advent of LED lights, as they only needed one bulb thus saving on power usage, a perennial problem with sailboats, again before the advent of affordable solar panels. It could be argued that with effective LED sidelights and affordable solar panels, it is not really necessary to use a masthead tricolour light anymore for a sailing vessel, particularly as it would also remove the need for a power cable to the masthead. Anchor lights do not need to be at the masthead either and in fact are generally considered more effective time lower down, say at boom height. Perhaps it is time for a rethink of the light requirements although in fact there is nothing compelling a sailboat to use masthead lights at all, only a steaming light at about spreader height or slightly lower. I would be curious to know whether a steaming light, in conjunction with the navigation stern light, would be deemed acceptable as an anchor light?

As I mentioned in an earlier post, a steaming light down the mast, at say, spreader height, can be obscured by the jib over a wide sector when motor sailing. I feel that having the steaming light on the top of the mast is preferable.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

hes only " heard " Benteaus are built that way , clearly he needs to walk around a yard or marina filled with beneteas !!

I also " heard" the moonwalk was faked !!

I actually "heard" it here on Cruisers' Forum when, on another thread, an OP posted that he had seen it at a boat show and questioned it. It was a respondent who noted that it was common on Beneteaus.

As I don't think we are following legal rules of evidence here, I believe hearsay evidence is admissible - providing it is identified as such - which I did.

And no, I don't believe that the moon walk was faked!

[Breaking Waves]

[QUOTE=thinwater;3558933Is an all-in-one masthead light legal?[/QUOTE]

long thread, short answer:

(1) to be pedantic about 'legal' . . . you don't need any lights at all if you never operate in conditions when they are required. And you can certainly install an 'all-in-one' light if you never use it improperly.

(2) For operation under sail, under 20m, a single unit at the masthead is (one of several) legal alternatives. But the white needs to be a stern sector and not an all-around.

(3) For operation under power, No, Not legal.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

That's too close to call. If I saw an "amber" light out there, to be prudent I would assume a tug and tow. Note that nowhere else on the water are there two colours, with different meanings, so close together so as to be confusing - although occasionally I have difficulty discerning yellow from white.

Since I propose to use multiples of them at the gunnel, their arrangement could not be confused foe something else in the rule.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

long thread, short answer:



(1) to be pedantic about 'legal' . . . you don't need any lights at all if you never operate in conditions when they are required. And you can certainly install an 'all-in-one' light if you never use it improperly.



(2) For operation under sail, under 20m, a single unit at the masthead is (one of several) legal alternatives. But the white needs to be a stern sector and not an all-around.



(3) For operation under power, No, Not legal.

You could use a tricolor while motoring if you found a way to mount a masthead/steaming light 1m/2m above it without obscuring part of the tricolor’s light with a support post.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

I actually "heard" it here on Cruisers' Forum when, on another thread, an OP posted that he had seen it at a boat show and questioned it. It was a respondent who noted that it was common on Beneteaus.

As I don't think we are following legal rules of evidence here, I believe hearsay evidence is admissible - providing it is identified as such - which I did.

And no, I don't believe that the moon walk was faked!

let me assure you the presence of a tricolour on the mast top whilst common in the UK is decidedly uncommon in the EU . I had to argue with my french dealer to get it fitted to my Beneteau 393

( he turned to his colleague and explained in french it was some mad british thing !!)

Stock Jeanneau, Beneteau and Bavs Hanse etc are all deck mounted side lights

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

See and be seen. If your navigation lights are at two meters above the waterline and you are at sea and you have one or two meter waves or swells running...and I’m on a large commercial vessel...do you think I can see you? If you have a mast tricolor and it’s above the waves, I’ll have a better chance.
Lights on the bow rail / stern rail, are nice n calm seas or harbors but offshore ?
All professional mariners want is to first...avoid collision. That means a light high enough to be seen. I honestly don’t care what light or color including strobes. I’ll call or we can figure it out, and if we are not sure, we’ll change course, slow down or even stop. The most confusing light is one that appears then disappears...as in we see it when you are on top of a wave and you disappear at the bottom.
Happy trails
The manatee crew

my experience at sea is nether location helps much, firstly the lights are faint and secondly the mast top lights are often moving widely about , whereas the deck side lights whilst visible on teh wave tops are usually steadier

disappearing nav lights are very common at sea , small fishing boats etc , so masthead lights are not really bringing much to the overall party

[Martkimwat]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I see a lot of boats with no deck level side lights.


The steaming light cannot be under the side lights (tricolor). It must be above.

Have you checked at the bow to see if they have a bicolour light there and a corresponding white at the stern?