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Old 23-01-2022, 11:09   #76
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Re: Is an all-in-one masthead light legal?

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
You could use a tricolor while motoring if you found a way to mount a masthead/steaming light 1m/2m above it without obscuring part of the tricolor’s light with a support post.

I did not comment on that alternative - as (I believe) that is NOT the 'all in one' sort of light fixture that Thinwater was specifically discussing (or at least I am not aware of any that tall).

but yes, the rule is "(h) The sidelights, if in a combined lantern and carried on a power-driven vessel of less than 20 meters in length, shall be placed not less than 1 meter below the masthead light."
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Old 23-01-2022, 11:44   #77
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Re: Is an all-in-one masthead light legal?

My overall thought on this topic is that brighter is better. I believe that the pathetic little lights that are legal on vessels under 12 metres, and even under 20 metres, are a nod to the power consumption requirements of incandescent bulbs and the difficulty of delivering that power on small sailboats. In this day and age of LED's, solar panels, and monster ships doing 20 knots plus and requiring miles to turn or stop, I feel we should all be displaying MUCH brighter lights that can be noticed and seen at far greater distances than are currently required. For vessels under 12 metres, the current requirement is for 1 mile visibility for sidelights and 2 mile visibility for white lights (and that is in good conditions!). This is far too close for an encounter between a supertanker and a sailboat. Even the 3 mile requirement for vessels under 20 metres is inadequate. If your sidelights are two metres above the water, and they are bright enough, they can be seen from the bridge of a deep sea vessel, 70 feet above the water, at a distance of nearly 12 nautical miles (again, in good conditions). There is now no reason for our nav lights not to be bright enough to be visible at that distance.

There is also, I believe, a very good argument for mounting sidelights up in the shrouds on light screens (as was done in days of old) to increase both the distance from which they can be seen and also so there is less chance they will disappear from view as you drop into a wave trough.
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Old 23-01-2022, 17:32   #78
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Re: Is an all-in-one masthead light legal?

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Originally Posted by Martkimwat View Post
SOLAS is International, national rules cannot override them, all countries have to comply with SOLAS. Europe is no different from the rest of the World.

SOLAS and COLREGs are two entirely different things. SOLAS does not stipluate lighting requirements.
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Old 25-01-2022, 17:06   #79
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Re: Is an all-in-one masthead light legal?

Sidelights, stern light, two meters above the sea ...Can be seen at 12 miles from the bridge ? What?
The manatee crew are rolling around the floor in stitches.
Maybe on the bridge of the Goodyear blimp.
Aircraft carrier.
Mark and his low rider crew.
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Old 25-01-2022, 18:16   #80
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Re: Is an all-in-one masthead light legal?

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Sidelights, stern light, two meters above the sea ...Can be seen at 12 miles from the bridge ? What?
The manatee crew are rolling around the floor in stitches.
Maybe on the bridge of the Goodyear blimp.
Aircraft carrier.
Mark and his low rider crew.

I checked the math: a sufficiently bright light 6 ft above the water is visible 11.5 miles away by an observer 69.85 feet feet above the water - a not uncommon height for the bridge on a deep sea vessel.
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Old 26-01-2022, 07:25   #81
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Re: Is an all-in-one masthead light legal?

In the perfect world of mathematics ? Absolutely no lights on the bridge. No water in the atmosphere. Perfectly clear glass.
Navigation lights without wire or contact corrosion, dirty or cracked lenses, bird poo. Perfect observer vision, no age related loss.
Rather than argue, the manatee crew offers the following help.
Because we spend a lot of time trying to figure out what we are looking at when there is no AIS identification, we offer the following suggestion to all mariners.
Please call another vessel and ask what they can see.
You will be surprised. It’s takes just a few minutes and most commercial vessels will answer unless there is a lot of traffic.
Happy trails to you.
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Old 26-01-2022, 07:46   #82
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Re: Is an all-in-one masthead light legal?

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Originally Posted by Manateeman View Post
In the perfect world of mathematics ? Absolutely no lights on the bridge. No water in the atmosphere. Perfectly clear glass.
Navigation lights without wire or contact corrosion, dirty or cracked lenses, bird poo. Perfect observer vision, no age related loss.
Rather than argue, the manatee crew offers the following help.
Because we spend a lot of time trying to figure out what we are looking at when there is no AIS identification, we offer the following suggestion to all mariners.
Please call another vessel and ask what they can see.
You will be surprised. It’s takes just a few minutes and most commercial vessels will answer unless there is a lot of traffic.
Happy trails to you.
The manatee crew.
I absolutely agree, and I do all of that - and I have an AIS transponder on Scorpius. I'm simply trying to make the case for brighter navigation lights. Having a one mile visibility requirement on a small vessel, in this day and age, is ridiculous. That requirement was written long before we had 200,000 tonne ships doing over 20 knots plying the seas. Today, having a ten mile requirement (yes, in perfect conditions as that is how these things are specified and measured) is quite practical.

I recall an incident off the west end of Cuba (Cape San Antonio) while heading up to Florida when, in the middle of the night I was faced with FIVE deep seas, line abreast, coming at me. I tried on the radio, and flashed my spotlight in their direction several times before one of them, a banana boat doing, he said, 26 knots, replied. HE changed course and opened a decent hole in the wall that I could get through. Better nav lights all around, including on me, would have been quite helpful in that incident. I subsequently upgraded mine to the largest I could practically carry.

Mariners should use ALL means at their disposal to ensure the safety of EVERYBODY out there and I would see upgrading the nav light requirements as a contribution to that concept.
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Old 26-01-2022, 07:51   #83
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Re: Is an all-in-one masthead light legal?

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Originally Posted by Scorpius View Post
I absolutely agree, and I do all of that - and I have an AIS transponder on Scorpius. I'm simply trying to make the case for brighter navigation lights. Having a one mile visibility requirement on a small vessel, in this day and age, is ridiculous. That requirement was written long before we had 200,000 tonne ships doing over 20 knots plying the seas. Today, having a ten mile requirement (yes, in perfect conditions as that is how these things are specified and measured) is quite practical.

Mariners should use ALL means at their disposal to ensure the safety of EVERYBODY out there and I would see upgrading these requirements as a contribution to that concept.

Lights bright enough to see at 10 miles are not very practical. Powering them is easy these days, but that much light creates a whole lot of glare. And it would be blinding to any other boats close by.

That said, I consider the 2nm side / stern lights and 3nm masthead to be the minimum. The 1nm stuff looks like a candle in comparison to the 2nm. And my anchor light is 3nm (instead of the required 2nm) as well. Those lights (particularly the 3nm masthead) are quite bright.

Going up to 3nm side/stern lights and a 5nm masthead would be even better, but I think that's about as bright as practical.
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Old 26-01-2022, 08:11   #84
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Re: Is an all-in-one masthead light legal?

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Lights bright enough to see at 10 miles are not very practical. Powering them is easy these days, but that much light creates a whole lot of glare. And it would be blinding to any other boats close by.

That said, I consider the 2nm side / stern lights and 3nm masthead to be the minimum. The 1nm stuff looks like a candle in comparison to the 2nm. And my anchor light is 3nm (instead of the required 2nm) as well. Those lights (particularly the 3nm masthead) are quite bright.

Going up to 3nm side/stern lights and a 5nm masthead would be even better, but I think that's about as bright as practical.
It would certainly be a big step in the right direction - and I agree back scatter and glare could be a problem - but these can be minimized with good optics design and screening. The screening on most recreational boats is non-existent.
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Old 26-01-2022, 08:13   #85
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Re: Is an all-in-one masthead light legal?

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It would certainly be a big step in the right direction - and I agree back scatter and glare could be a problem - but these can be minimized with good optics design and screening. The screening on most recreational boats is non-existent.

I'm thinking more of glare off the water around you (particularly with some wave action). That's much harder to solve than shielding to avoid glare from on-board objects.
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Old 26-01-2022, 08:24   #86
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Re: Is an all-in-one masthead light legal?

While a masthead tricolor is visible over longer distances, it is essentially impossible to discern range, especially by ships.

Therefore, for safety, I don’t use a masthead tricolor.
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Old 26-01-2022, 08:31   #87
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Re: Is an all-in-one masthead light legal?

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While a masthead tricolor is visible over longer distances, it is essentially impossible to discern range, especially by ships.

Therefore, for safety, I don’t use a masthead tricolor.
I infer from yhe way you phrased this that you believe ships can better judge range for deck level lights.

Am I inferring something incorrectly.
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Old 26-01-2022, 14:56   #88
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Re: Is an all-in-one masthead light legal?

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I infer from yhe way you phrased this that you believe ships can better judge range for deck level lights.

Am I inferring something incorrectly.
Master mariners have mentioned that judging the range of oncoming lights is partly by the vertical angle down to the light from the ships bridge. A nearby masthead light can be confused with a more distant deck level light, leading to poor decisions being made.

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Old 26-01-2022, 14:59   #89
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Re: Is an all-in-one masthead light legal?

Ah, that makes sense.
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Old 26-01-2022, 15:17   #90
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Re: Is an all-in-one masthead light legal?

We are not sure what constitutes a Master Mariner but my blubber butt crew holds a lot of orange passport looking things called Merchant Mariner Credentials.
They all had to stay after school and didn’t pass basic geometry so they cannot comment on angles.
Again, we don’t care about the minutiae (see they flunked Latin).
Just LIGHT IT UP.
We will call you.
Good grief...what does it matter so long as we can AVOID a collision.
Merchant Mariners are not traffic cops.
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