I give you the Slip from Hell

[Jamme]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

Backing in is easy when being blown off and is my preferred tactic. Being blown on I prefer bow first. Basically, the bow is easier to control in these configurations because the stern seeks the wind. It takes quite a brave helmsman to arrive steen first when being blown on hard unless you have a beefy thruster.

As I mentioned earlier spronging off a leeward berth is infinitely preferable to springing off one in my opinion. It’s just so easy and relaxed. Maybe springing off a bow thoroughly protected with a bow fender might be just as good. Again though when springing off like that in a real blow it can be difficult finding that sweet spot between scratching the bow all down the pontoon as you build up steerage way and avoiding hitting the boat aft of you as you thrust off the pontoon to save the bow thereby swinging the stern into said neighbour. With spronging you are a good meter or two off the dock before releasing the lines, and the boat is pointing where you wish to go with the engine engaged and the rudder aligned. I’m a big fan of the sprong.

I agree. Have used the spronging technique a multitude of times. Very easy, especially when single handed (all lines close to the helm). However I usually need rudder correction while in gear to point in the right direction, so have no idea how this would work with a twin rudder / no prop wash configuration as per OP.

Fair winds.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

Backing in is easy when being blown off and is my preferred tactic. Being blown on I prefer bow first. Basically, the bow is easier to control in these configurations because the stern seeks the wind. It takes quite a brave helmsman to arrive steen first when being blown on hard unless you have a beefy thruster.

As I mentioned earlier spronging off a leeward berth is infinitely preferable to springing off one in my opinion. It’s just so easy and relaxed. Maybe springing off a bow thoroughly protected with a bow fender might be just as good. Again though when springing off like that in a real blow it can be difficult finding that sweet spot between scratching the bow all down the pontoon as you build up steerage way and avoiding hitting the boat aft of you as you thrust off the pontoon to save the bow thereby swinging the stern into said neighbour. With spronging you are a good meter or two off the dock before releasing the lines, and the boat is pointing where you wish to go with the engine engaged and the rudder aligned. I’m a big fan of the sprong.

Spronging can be useful where you need to spring the bow out and you don't want to go in reverse against a spring line. A big advantage of spronging is that you can use the rudder wash and counter rudder to move the stern off the dock. That's in fact what I do in calm weather, only I use the bow thruster instead of a sprong line. Counter rudder won't work for the OP so I'm not sure spronging will work at all for him.

But as you say, "the stern seeks the wind", so when getting out of a berth you are being blown onto, it's much easier to spring off from the bow and reverse out. Because the bow is narrower than the amidships beam, you have a lot of space to turn before the bow approaches the dock. Fenders plus bow thruster will keep the bow from contacting the dock, and of course you have to properly time your shifting gear to reverse.

One way to really screw up this maneuver, or any springing/spronging maneuver, is, besides getting the rope in the prop, as someone mentioned, getting the line jammed in the cleat when you need to slip it. Never happened to me, but I saw someone cause a lot of damage one time when the slip line snagged in the cleat because it twisted as it paid out. I'm not sure I would trust that sheepshank slip knot someone showed, more than a conventional slip line, but you have to be careful that it doesn't get twisted or kinks. I like to use a smooth double braid repurposed sheet for a slip line, rather than a normal dock line, for this reason.

[Na Mara]

I haven’t tried spronging with a fat bottomed twin rudder boat and can imagine that it probably doesn’t work as well without the prop wash allowing you to control the stern. In such a boat with a vertical bow I reckon springing off the bow would be preferred. Again though, springing off the bow when being blown on hard is easier with a v-shaped bow fender and prop wash. Then it’s a lot easier to get the stern well out before engaging reverse reducing the risks in the maneuver.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

I haven’t tried spronging with a fat bottomed twin rudder boat and can imagine that it probably doesn’t work as well without the prop wash allowing you to control the stern. In such a boat with a vertical bow I reckon springing off the bow would be preferred. Again though, springing off the bow when being blown on hard is easier with a v-shaped bow fender and prop wash. Then it’s a lot easier to get the stern well out before engaging reverse reducing the risks in the maneuver.

I think springing off from the bow is going to be better with any kind of boat, when you're trying to get off a berth you are being blown onto. Your stern -- which "seeks the wind" as you said (I like the phrase) -- will point reliably and stably into the wind as you come out. Your bow won't.

[rslifkin]

When slipping a line off a cleat at the last minute for departure, I always run it under just the far side horn of the dock cleat, never around both sides or through the middle. That makes it pretty easy to slip it free, and depending on length of the line, etc. it's often possible to just quickly get some slack into the line and then flick it off the cleat without having to pull the whole length through.

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think springing off from the bow is going to be better with any kind of boat, when you're trying to get off a berth you are being blown onto. Your stern -- which "seeks the wind" as you said (I like the phrase) -- will point reliably and stably into the wind as you come out. Your bow won't.

Perhaps it's time for me to spring off from the original post and let this discussion run its course as a thread about how best to get off a dock in general, but in the Slip From Hell, you are required to dock as shown below, and there is a boat docked on a finger slip parallel to yours to starboard.

Pretty certain you cannot spring that boat off from the bow in this situation.

[rslifkin]

Personally, I don't understand the rule about having to back in. In my mind, unless there's a depth problem or something that would restrict you, it's not the dockmaster's place to tell you how you can dock your boat. It's their job to tell you *where* to dock it, etc.


In general, with a bowthruster I'd be comfortable backed into that slip. Without one, I'd rather back out than in.



That field of abandoned pilings is also pretty unacceptable in my book. If the marina had no plans to remove them, I'd pass on that as a permanent slip and look elsewhere. I'd deal with it as a transient though.

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Personally, I don't understand the rule about having to back in. In my mind, unless there's a depth problem or something that would restrict you, it's not the dockmaster's place to tell you how you can dock your boat. It's their job to tell you *where* to dock it, etc.


In general, with a bowthruster I'd be comfortable backed into that slip. Without one, I'd rather back out than in.



That field of abandoned pilings is also pretty unacceptable in my book. If the marina had no plans to remove them, I'd pass on that as a permanent slip and look elsewhere. I'd deal with it as a transient though.

Certainly these are all reasonable comments for a general situation with a boat owner and a slip the owner is paying for.

This particular dock is not a marina, it is a sailing club/sailing school, and therefore, ownership can make the rules as its sees fit. My guess is that they feel that the pilings are more easily negotiated by a boat nosing out than backing out at an angle.

Having gone in and out of that slip numerous times, I can tell you that backing in is definitely easier than nosing out in calm conditions, simply because you can line up between the two boats and set a straight course to the dock that avoids both boats.

Also, revealing my hand a bit further, staff goes home at 6, but you can bring the boat back at any hour. Hence the need to be able to get on and off the dock with no help from shore. [The club will cancel departures from this dock in really unfavorable conditions, and I have changed plans to come in during off hours when I've determined that it might be too dangerous to do, such as in a 30-knot wind pushing the boat away from the dock (and onto those unmarked, submerged piles in the dark.]

Regarding the pilings, those are a legacy problem, and not owned by the club.
It is true that the boats to starboard are docked bow in because of a depth problem related to the contour of the shoreline. If you want a really challenging departure, there is a slip that requires backing out alongside those pilings that becomes extremely tricky in any kind of wind on the beam, which happens to be the prevailing wind.

All this is why you aren't allowed to sail these boats until you can demonstrate that you can get in and out of these slips without causing damage (and why members sign a number of waivers.)

It really helps to have that ability to get in and out of gas and pompout docks. In posting this, I was wondering if anyone had ideas that I might not have thought of, and I've readd a few good ones. I'll back off now, and won't interrupt the interesting discussion unless someone is addressing me in particular.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by DMF Sailing

Certainly these are all reasonable comments for a general situation with a boat owner and a slip the owner is paying for.



This particular dock is not a marina, it is a sailing club/sailing school, and therefore, ownership can make the rules as its sees fit. My guess is that they feel that the pilings are more easily negotiated by a boat nosing out than backing out at an angle.



Having gone in and out of that slip numerous times, I can tell you that backing in is definitely easier than nosing out in calm conditions, simply because you can line up between the two boats and set a straight course to the dock that avoids both boats.



Also, revealing my hand a bit further, staff goes home at 6, but you can bring the boat back at any hour. Hence the need to be able to get on and off the dock with no help from shore. [The club will cancel departures from this dock in really unfavorable conditions, and I have changed plans to come in during off hours when I've determined that it might be too dangerous to do, such as in a 30-knot wind pushing the boat away from the dock (and onto those unmarked, submerged piles in the dark.]



Regarding the pilings, those are a legacy problem, and not owned by the club.

It is true that the boats to starboard are docked bow in because of a depth problem related to the contour of the shoreline. If you want a really challenging departure, there is a slip that requires backing out alongside those pilings that becomes extremely tricky in any kind of wind on the beam, which happens to be the prevailing wind.



All this is why you aren't allowed to sail these boats until you can demonstrate that you can get in and out of these slips without causing damage (and why members sign a number of waivers.)



It really helps to have that ability to get in and out of gas and pompout docks. In posting this, I was wondering if anyone had ideas that I might not have thought of, and I've readd a few good ones. I'll back off now, and won't interrupt the interesting discussion unless someone is addressing me in particular.

Thanks for posting the interesting question.

Harbour maneuvers into or out of difficult berths and/or in challenging conditions can be awfully nerve wracking, but it's awfully satisfying when you get it right and bring her in or out under complete control. It's one of the more complex skill sets among the many different skill sets you need to be a good sailor. These discussions are always fun and interesting; there's always something new to learn.

[suiramor]

Could you not run a weighted line between the dock and one of the piles and use that to pull your bow out when departing?

[Moana Bella]

I would spring off the stern, then gun it as suggested. I have done this in our 50-footer a couple of times and it was surprisingly easy and effective.
Wind pushing you back on would necessitate a quick crew sprint up forward to be prepared to fend if the wind catches the bow before you get going.
But I would sure toss my head and stamp my foot and refuse to go back in there again.

[DMF Sailing]

Wait a sec! New game!!

Same slip, 37-foot boat, only this time, single rudder and 10-15 blowing in the direction of the Sun Odyssey to starboard.

No help from the dock or either boat; one crew member on your boat (who knows what to do). No bow thruster.

How do you get out?

(It'll be freshening to 15-20 soon so don't delay!)

[El Pinguino]

In post #1 and in your latest pic all the boats look identical. Just take the one in front of yours, nobody will notice.

[rslifkin]

I'd go for the same method as with the twin rudders. Swing the bow out with a spring line and then go quickly. The only real difference is that you'll have rudder authority as soon as you put the boat in forward this time rather than waiting until you build speed.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by DMF Sailing

Wait a sec! New game!!



Same slip, 37-foot boat, only this time, single rudder and 10-15 blowing in the direction of the Sun Odyssey to starboard.



No help from the dock or either boat; one crew member on your boat (who knows what to do). No bow thruster.



How do you get out?



(It'll be freshening to 15-20 soon so don't delay!)

That's easy. Lines off carefully, simultaneously, blow off just a bit, squirt. Simples.