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Old 06-12-2022, 12:45   #31
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Re: heaving-to dilemma

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Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
Not sure Bob Perry would agree with you he drew a cutter, given mast placement, high aspect main (12' boom), and large J dimension (16').

More accurately its a "double head sail sloop" as I seem to remember him calling it.

The "cutter-stay" in the sail plan is there I believe principally to allow for a storm sail option. Also, I believe he preferred to sail the E37 that he personally owned as a sloop rather than a "clutter rig" as he sometimes call them (despite having designed a ton of clutter rig boats).

Also, we do not use a big overlapping genoa now that we are cruising Mexico. That was for racing. The boat is easily driven by just the 110% jib on a furler.

Thanks for the comments up thread confirming the issue we have following the "just back the jib and you're hove-to" conventional wisdom.

And its the "heaving-to in anger" scenario we are trying to prepare for to get a rest and not give up much ground in a relatively long duration heavy weather situation.

My plan now will be to try heaving-to with just the main and completely furled jib next time. That would be dead simple if it works.

And failing that, try rigging a snatch block well forward on the slotted toe rail as suggested with partially furled 110%.

BTW what is the "tail block" mentioned above? Do you mean clamp the snatch block over the loaded jib sheet with some king of line going to the slotted rail, before you come about to back wind the jib? If so, that would be an encouraging simplification and avoid having to muscle anything.

Thanks to all,
J
Bob Perry is active on Facebook "Bob Perry Fan Club" and you could ask him, and also his opinion on the best way to heave to on his boat.
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Old 06-12-2022, 13:37   #32
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Re: heaving-to dilemma

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Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
I practiced heaving-to recently & was shocked to see my headsail sheet bar-tight laid against my upper shroud as a point load.

I could not image doing that for hours in heavy weather!

Is this what they never tell you in all these expert articles on heavy weather tactics?

Particularly the “all you have to do is tack the boat backwinding the jib, & adjust the main a little”.

BS.

I would have to run a second sheet inside the shrouds to possibly get a lead angle that does not try to push the whole rig down with the side loads on the shrouds.

So then I would have sketchy work on the foredeck & 3 sheets on the clew threatening to scramble them into a macrame knot from hell if they are not tended perfectly during deployment.

How do those that have actually done this in heavy weather succeed at it?

Thanks.
This is a great observation -- absolutely accurate.

However -- heaving-to in heavy weather does actually work. There are, as you observed, chafe points, but I've never had any observable damage to sail or sheet in many decades of using this tactic. We do, in fact, just "tack the boat, backwinding the jib, and adjust the main," and nothing more. Well, lash the helm alee. Then go below and have a cup of tea, or make a meal, relax, and wait for it to blow over.

In really really bad conditions, we wouldn't do this. When there are large breaking waves, we wouldn't be hove-to because of the risk of getting knocked down; we run off. We have a Jordan series drogue for real survival conditions, never yet used in anger.

I've crossed the North Sea 13 times and spent many years cruising the English Channel, and have been as far North as 72N; I've had a fair amount of experience with really bad weather. Heaving-to is a really critically important tactic in areas with a lot of bad weather, most especially important in case something on deck breaks and you need to do repair work on deck, in bad weather. Heaving-to is like pressing the pause button -- it's almost magical. It's also a life saver if someone on board comes down with really bad seasickness.
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Old 06-12-2022, 18:14   #33
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Re: heaving-to dilemma

I have to admit I never dreamed that heaving-to would result in such a peaceful motion.
I think "magical" is an apt description.
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Old 07-12-2022, 10:24   #34
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Re: heaving-to dilemma

I have a Hunter Cherrubini 37 cutter and I'm not sure it would heave to under main alone, I should try it some time.

One huge advantage to heaving to with a foresail up is that the main sail is essentially back winded and can be easily reefed. An added benefit is that 60 seconds ago you were on a bucking broncho holding on for dear life and now its a purring pussy cat. Foredeck work can be safely done.
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Old 08-12-2022, 15:41   #35
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Re: heaving-to dilemma

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. . . An added benefit is that 60 seconds ago you were on a bucking broncho holding on for dear life and now its a purring pussy cat. Foredeck work can be safely done.

Exactly
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Old 09-12-2022, 07:05   #36
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Re: heaving-to dilemma

I have done in 40kn of wind on a 51í sailboat. You donít have the issue of the genoa on the shrouds because with that amount of wind, you have the sail furled to a minimum and in my case, I had a staysail. The boat goes into a tranquility state that itís very welcoming. That time, I stayed 18 hours with no damage and instead, we were well rested.
Heaving-to, itís a nice way to get a rest. I try to do it here and there for a couple of hours so the crew gets a good rest, showers and a nice meal.
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Old 09-12-2022, 07:27   #37
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Re: heaving-to dilemma

Our Cutter Rig 49' configuration solves the sloop's shroud-sheet issue; however, we reef the staysail to avoid the potential of the leach contacting the radar dome. Normally, the staysail would be reefed anyway when heaving-to in really rough weather.
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Old 09-12-2022, 07:29   #38
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Re: heaving-to dilemma

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Originally Posted by wholybee View Post
If the sheet isn't against the shrouds (like if you ran it inside) the the jib would not be held to windward.
This awkward setting of the jib creates drag and balances with the main, which tries to propel the boat forward, and together the boat is stable without much motion.
Anyway, the sail or sheet will be on the rigging, that can't really be avoided. But if hove to they shouldn't be moving back and forth, so chafe should not be an issue.
Exactly. Also, it is assumed that by the time you heave-to, you arenít still flying a big Genoa. I hove-to twice on our west-to-east crossing this summer and just had a high cut yankee jib up. The sheet (not the sail) bore on the shroud but suffered no chafe.
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Old 09-12-2022, 08:17   #39
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Re: heaving-to dilemma

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Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
Boat is a Bob Perry design 1979 Valiant Esprit 37 sloop I have sailed for 40 years.

Still getting to know it I guess.

My 110% genoa as well as all other head sails definitely sheet outside all shrouds.

That inner stay is just for a storm jib (maybe). I sail it as a sloop and do not want to mess with a staysail. So my question is all about the lead to the 110% genoa clew for heaving-to.

I have a hard time believing it is "seaman-like" to heave to with a big side load on the top shroud 4 feet above the deck.

Next time I will try heaving-to with just the main. But note that is is an IOR high aspect mainsail as was the rage back then. Do you think that will make it harder or easier to heave-to with just the main?
Thats the time to use that inner stay your boat has installed and designed for, don't be lazy. Work out procedures for its use and practice good seamanship. You have the gear, use it.

I hove-to off the coast of Washington (Graveyard of the Pacific) in a gale returning from Hawaii for 30+ hours with just the staysail and fully reefed main and the crew was comfortable as we inched to the entrance of the Strait of Juan de Fuca at about 2K.
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Old 09-12-2022, 08:49   #40
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Re: heaving-to dilemma

We sail a similar boat to the OP's, a Corbin 39, cutter rig. We too had difficulty heaving to in the beginning. We found a very informative video on the subject by the Maryland School of Sailing (searchable on Youtube).
That is where we learned that heaving to with a cutter rig is often better with only a double reefed main. Now, we typically drift at ~ 1kt, compared with 2 to 2.5 knots with a headsail/main.
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Old 09-12-2022, 09:12   #41
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Re: heaving-to dilemma

Heaving to is a turkey shoot at best. The water will dictate if you can be successful. "Water is stronger than wind".
The Pardee's wrote an entire book about the problems of heaving to, attempting to resolve it with para anchors etc.
I know how to heave to, two attempts at doing so in rough weather put the boat at risk more than anything. It's not that the wind was so strong (35-45) it was the seas were super steep, tall and short spaced.
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Old 09-12-2022, 09:23   #42
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heaving-to dilemma

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Heaving to is a turkey shoot at best. The water will dictate if you can be successful. "Water is stronger than wind".
The Pardee's wrote an entire book about the problems of heaving to, attempting to resolve it with para anchors etc.
I know how to heave to, two attempts at doing so in rough weather put the boat at risk more than anything. It's not that the wind was so strong (35-45) it was the seas were super steep, tall and short spaced.


I agree my experience in small weight weight low aspect forefoot canoe body yachts is its a huge turkey shoot. Very few such boats will remain stable for any length of time certainly no more then a cup
of coffee. This is very true in aggressive seaways
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Old 09-12-2022, 09:37   #43
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Re: heaving-to dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
I practiced heaving-to recently & was shocked to see my headsail sheet bar-tight laid against my upper shroud as a point load.

I could not image doing that for hours in heavy weather!

Is this what they never tell you in all these expert articles on heavy weather tactics?

Particularly the ďall you have to do is tack the boat backwinding the jib, & adjust the main a littleĒ.

BS.

I would have to run a second sheet inside the shrouds to possibly get a lead angle that does not try to push the whole rig down with the side loads on the shrouds.

So then I would have sketchy work on the foredeck & 3 sheets on the clew threatening to scramble them into a macrame knot from hell if they are not tended perfectly during deployment.

How do those that have actually done this in heavy weather succeed at it?

Thanks.
The most important thing you have done right; is that you've tried it out before you needed to. Great job!
I tried it out first, in about 20 knots, and found the same thing. I added those plastic chafe guards. I've since hove to a couple of times, in winds of about 35 knots or so, noticing that the sheet is hard against the shroud, but not moving at all so it didn't seem to suffer at all. After a few hours, I discovered that my boat actually rode better fore-reaching under staysail alone. I guess there really is no "right answer". It depends not the boat and the wind/ sea conditions at the time.
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Old 09-12-2022, 09:43   #44
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Re: heaving-to dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Heaving to is a turkey shoot at best. The water will dictate if you can be successful. "Water is stronger than wind".
The Pardee's wrote an entire book about the problems of heaving to, attempting to resolve it with para anchors etc.
I know how to heave to, two attempts at doing so in rough weather put the boat at risk more than anything. It's not that the wind was so strong (35-45) it was the seas were super steep, tall and short spaced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I agree my experience in small weight weight low aspect forefoot canoe body yachts is its a huge turkey shoot. Very few such boats will remain stable for any length of time certainly no more then a cup
of coffee. This is very true in aggressive seaways

I have never had any difficulty making any kind of sailboat whatever heave to, even ultralight racers. You just have to experiment with the sheeting angles, traveler, etc. until you get it to work. Heaving to is just stalling the boat -- it's not rocket science. You just get the sails working against each other and against the rudder and the boat stops sailing. Some boats are more stable forereaching a bit -- that's ok too.



That being said, I do agree that there are sea states you don't want to be hove to in. Big and or steep enough waves can catch you, spin you around, turn you beam to the waves, and then you're in big trouble. The Pardeys solve this with sea anchors, but in my opinion that's for the birds -- I will run off when it gets that bad. With a series drogue out, it's just as calm as heaving to but with total stability -- you cannot be knocked down or turned beam-on to the seas, and you can't fall off a wave and pitchpole.


In my opinion, heaving to is for hard conditions but not survival conditions. YMMV.
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I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
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Old 09-12-2022, 13:36   #45
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Re: heaving-to dilemma

We hove-to with double reefed main and staysail. Hans Christian 34. Try it. Works fine
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