Heading upwind to furl

[lateral]

Anything >15Knts we bearaway and depower blanket with main. because genoa wont furl upwind.
Way too much strain on furling gear up wind too. Funky old Furlex mark II with all new bearings etc.
Had an all day return trip 18-22knts app beam reach a few weeks back , then got nailed by forty knot squall with no reefs & #2. Flattened, then Rounded up severely. Eased main to bear away bit by bit until we could get the wind behind. furled, motor on, head back up to drop main. Nearly home anyway.
Pretty intense, but enjoyable none the less. We work with what we've got as I guess do most.

Two up. Young fella thought all his christmas's had come at once. Excellent help for a non sailor.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

. . .
My biggest problem is my main. I find with conventional slides my main will not drop completely even fully luffed up. That means a trip to the mast , I’m thinking of running sone form of Cunningham to act as a pull down run back to the cockpit clutches.

Did you consider ball bearing cars? That's how I solved that problem on my last boat. Fairly simple fix, and should help this a lot.

In-mast furling is an even better solution, but not practical as a retrofit.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by SV_Sweet_Ruca

. . . Bearing off to furl it is the pro move. Even if your main is not up, you will still greatly reduce the apparent wind on the sail and have a smoother furl.

If you are flogging it to death upwind while grinding the winch you are just costing yourself $$$$

Who said anything about flogging? And I beg to differ about the "pro move". Bearing away only works if you can blanket the jib with the main. That does work great, but to do that from an upwind posture means not only bearing away, but rigging the preventer, etc. etc. etc. A lot of work just to furl the jib.

Otherwise bearing away does reduce apparent wind, but makes it impossible to depower the sail by sheeting out. On a beam to broad reach, however far you sheet out, the sail is still drawing and powered up. Furling the sail like that is NOT a "pro move". Upwind, you can depower the sail without flogging it, doing it the way Boatie described. That's exactly how we do it. With expensive carbon laminate jibs (no flogging allowed), one of which is now 25,000 miles old and still in excellent raceable condition.

[Jim Cate]

One thing to note is that the OP has a light and quick cat. When he bears off in a gust, his boat speed increment is considerably larger than it is for many of us with slower boats, and hence his reduction in apparent wind strength is greater than we might experience.

May make a difference in attitude about furling protocol!

Jim

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by lateral

Anything >15Knts we bearaway and depower blanket with main. because genoa wont furl upwind.
Way too much strain on furling gear up wind too. Funky old Furlex mark II with all new bearings etc.
Had an all day return trip 18-22knts app beam reach a few weeks back , then got nailed by forty knot squall with no reefs & #2. Flattened, then Rounded up severely. Eased main to bear away bit by bit until we could get the wind behind. furled, motor on, head back up to drop main. Nearly home anyway.
Pretty intense, but enjoyable none the less. We work with what we've got as I guess do most.

Two up. Young fella thought all his christmas's had come at once. Excellent help for a non sailor.

I think the key to reducing flogging is to do it fast.

I've been staying out of this discussion since I have only a little experience with furlers. That which I have has been surprisingly difficult using the "ease and furl, ease and furl technique". Slow and lots of winching. Same on a few different boats, mostly bigger boats.

Having no furling, but still wanting to avoid flogging the sails, we drop our sails on deck and we head up to do it. One of us goes forward and the other heads up and releases the halyard (tending it). The sails come down amazingly fast and flogging is not an issue. The sails literally fall down. Same with the mainsail. Head up, release halyard and it is down on deck in an instant.

It is unfortunate I think that this has become more difficult with furling.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Did you consider ball bearing cars? That's how I solved that problem on my last boat. Fairly simple fix, and should help this a lot.

In-mast furling is an even better solution, but not practical as a retrofit.

The only upgrade for my mast is the car with wheels on the outside as my slot can’t accommodate the better one with wheels on the inside. The other option is a whole new external track which is very expensive. I’d probably go with a external main sail furler Instead.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The only upgrade for my mast is the car with wheels on the outside as my slot can’t accommodate the better one with wheels on the inside. The other option is a whole new external track which is very expensive. I’d probably go with a external main sail furler Instead.

I'd be careful with external furling gear. I've had bad experience with it, which doesn't prove they are all bad, but use caution.


Very different from good in-mast furling like Selden.


If I were you, I'd try the car with wheel on the outside. Maybe that will solve the problem.

[sailingharry]

Two comments

1) We find that adjusting course to wind on the beam allows easy control of flogging and tension, while also providing the neatest furl.
2) while I understand the aversion to using winches, I think there is a break point in boat size. On my old 34 footer, we never used a winch. On our 43 footer, I can usually furl by hand but frequently need a winch. My wife almost always needs a winch.

And for those that think that this discussion of winches and furling angles and such proves that hanks are so much easier, I can't imagine that dropping a hanked on sail and bagging it up can take less than the one minute it takes to furl the jib. And that doesn't count the time it takes the next day to shake it out of the bag and hoist it!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Two comments

1) We find that adjusting course to wind on the beam allows easy control of flogging and tension, while also providing the neatest furl.
2) while I understand the aversion to using winches, I think there is a break point in boat size. On my old 34 footer, we never used a winch. On our 43 footer, I can usually furl by hand but frequently need a winch. My wife almost always needs a winch.

And for those that think that this discussion of winches and furling angles and such proves that hanks are so much easier, I can't imagine that dropping a hanked on sail and bagging it up can take less than the one minute it takes to furl the jib. And that doesn't count the time it takes the next day to shake it out of the bag and hoist it!

When I sailed with hank ons I had tails on the lifelines for the sail aloft and a second sail flaked and tail tied on the opposite side ready to hank on and hoist..
Drop to Lee side inside lifelines, hanks on for new sail, connect and hoist, tie off dropped sail.
Yes furling is simpler and quicker.. till you get a jam, or the line parts..

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

...And for those that think that this discussion of winches and furling angles and such proves that hanks are so much easier, I can't imagine that dropping a hanked on sail and bagging it up can take less than the one minute it takes to furl the jib. And that doesn't count the time it takes the next day to shake it out of the bag and hoist it!

Very few boats do not have furling headsails. Far fewer have hanks.

And only the rarest of boats are found cruising with head foils (non furling). But that includes us.

Our sails have luff tapes just like sails on a furler, and our headfoil has grooves but the foil does not have a furling drum. Our sails go up the headfoil to set, and drop onto the deck when we take them down. Exactly the same for the mainsail. It is the method used by many race boats around the world, and a few cruising boats.

I am not promoting this approach. We have it because we are a race boat as well as a cruising boat and a liveaboard boat. We have sailed this boat this way for 35 years. For cruising we find it valuable and for racing it is more valuable.

The disadvantages are clear: It requires someone on the foredeck and careful boat handling to keep the sails on the boat and not in the water. And you have to fold and bag them when not in use which constitutes "work (ugh)" which today's sailors do not wish to do.

The main advantage is that you can change sails. For normal cruising we use an 85% working jib but in light air we can change to a genoa, and the reverse is also true. We can also change to a storm jib but we never have needed to. Another advantage is that our sails are not left hoisted and exposed to the weather when we are not sailing. Our sails are folded, bagged and stored below. Cruising we normally carry five or six sails in lockers below deck. When racing we carry about 10 sails. When we circumnavigated we carried 12 sails, all stored below in lockers or sail storage bins. Now we have more and I am not sure I can fit them in.

Cruising forum members can open their eyes to the variety of boats and sailing approaches that exist around the world and sailors everywhere should remember that sailing has been work for millennia and there is nothing wrong with including some exercise in your sailing adventure. Most labor saving devices on boats have a down side in terms of complexity. Simpler is better.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Very few boats do not have furling headsails. Far fewer have hanks.

And only the rarest of boats are found cruising with head foils (non furling). But that includes us.

Our sails have luff tapes just like sails on a furler, and our headfoil has grooves but the foil does not have a furling drum. Our sails go up the headfoil to set, and drop onto the deck when we take them down. Exactly the same for the mainsail. It is the method used by many race boats around the world, and a few cruising boats.

I am not promoting this approach. We have it because we are a race boat as well as a cruising boat and a liveaboard boat. We have sailed this boat this way for 35 years. For cruising we find it valuable and for racing it is more valuable.

The disadvantages are clear: It requires someone on the foredeck and careful boat handling to keep the sails on the boat and not in the water. And you have to fold and bag them when not in use which constitutes "work (ugh)" which today's sailors do not wish to do.

The main advantage is that you can change sails. For normal cruising we use an 85% working jib but in light air we can change to a genoa, and the reverse is also true. We can also change to a storm jib but we never have needed to. Another advantage is that our sails are not left hoisted and exposed to the weather when we are not sailing. Our sails are folded, bagged and stored below. Cruising we normally carry five or six sails in lockers below deck. When racing we carry about 10 sails. When we circumnavigated we carried 12 sails, all stored below in lockers or sail storage bins. Now we have more and I am not sure I can fit them in.

Cruising forum members can open their eyes to the variety of boats and sailing approaches that exist around the world and sailors everywhere should remember that sailing has been work for millennia and there is nothing wrong with including some exercise in your sailing adventure. Most labor saving devices on boats have a down side in terms of complexity. Simpler is better.

If I'm not losing my mind, couldn't you use a furler the same way, but with the option of furling or dropping the sail? You could still drop the sail easily for changes and to keep it out of the sun, but you'd have the option of furling it instead if conditions make it dangerous to go forward (or for convenience if you're leaving early the next morning and likely to want the same headsail up).

[SV_Sweet_Ruca]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Who said anything about flogging?

The OP actually, twice. I am saying it also. I see lots of it. It makes me cringe.

Originally Posted by catsketcher

She had never done that before and had always flagged the poor genny to furl it.

I have seen people flogging gennys in the Whitsundays in the trades

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Bearing away only works if you can blanket the jib with the main.

False. It will work every time to lower the apparent wind on the sail.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That does work great, but to do that from an upwind posture means not only bearing away, but rigging the preventer, etc. etc. etc. A lot of work just to furl the jib.

Seems like making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Otherwise bearing away does reduce apparent wind,

True.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

but makes it impossible to depower the sail by sheeting out. On a beam to broad reach, however far you sheet out, the sail is still drawing and powered up.

False. You can power depower by easing the sheet and blowing off the leech.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Upwind, you can depower the sail without flogging it, doing it the way Boatie described. That's exactly how we do it.

Sure you can ease a bit and furl a bit. Works just fine. Especially for small upwind or close reaching roller reefs. But that isn't what the OP asked about.

Originally Posted by catsketcher

I was reading a cruising blog the other day and the writers told of being hit with a squall. They were trying to reef the genoa and they wrestled and winched it in whilst keeping on heading upwind. It split the sail and they needed repairs. I wondered - why do people do this?

What the OP discussed is a mistake and risks damage to the sails, boat, and crew. Bearing away is the best move here. It is also the best move when putting the sail away for the day.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

With expensive carbon laminate jibs (no flogging allowed), one of which is now 25,000 miles old and still in excellent raceable condition.

If your "carbon laminate jib" is still in "raceable" condition after 25,000 actual sailing miles, I want to know your sailmaker as I will be calling him with my credit card in hand. Though, I doubt though we have the same definition of "raceable."

Nothing against you or others with high post counts, there are a lot of well-intentioned salty dogs out there with lots of good information to pass on.

There are also a lot of dated practices (lead acid batteries and CQR ancors) and thought processes (bluewater boats need full keels) that can use an update, so a lot of bad information gets relayed to beginners, and this "intimidation factor" hurts our wonderful sport. Wouldn't you agree?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

If I'm not losing my mind, couldn't you use a furler the same way, but with the option of furling or dropping the sail? You could still drop the sail easily for changes and to keep it out of the sun, but you'd have the option of furling it instead if conditions make it dangerous to go forward (or for convenience if you're leaving early the next morning and likely to want the same headsail up).

Well rslifkin, What you say is true and some people do drop sails which are on a furler, at sea, in order to set a different sail. Where it runs into problems is when you think about changing a sail. In racing (and while cruising on our boat) we do "doubled headed changes", also called a "peel".

Why is that a problem?

When a sail is hoisted on a furler there is a swivel at the top. After hoisting a new sail you cannot drop the old sail because the top swivel cannot come down past the new sail.

If you wanted to do double headed changes you would have to leave the top swivel off and then you could not furl the sail or if a sail is on a furler you have to go bareheaded to change. That's OK, we just prefer not to do that. Ever.

The second issue is that if you have a furled sail on the furler but decide you want a different sail you have to unfurl the first sail before switching to the other sail.

I'm not saying it can't be done, or that some people don't do it. But for us roller furling give zero advantages. We can drop our headsail as fast as anyone can furl theirs and they still have to unfurl it and drop it if they want to put it away. We are not so "work avoiding" that we would go to a furler to avid the few minutes of folding the sail later.

Finally, and this may be hard to grasp for many. My wife Judy and I sail our boat. WE SAIL IT. Anywhere we go if we can sail we do sail. Even upwind (especially upwind). We work at it. We are a team and we have been doing it for many years. We enjoy working together. Talking is not usually required.

And when we arrive, often breathless, (remember, we're in our 70's) we have a cool beverage then put the boat away, which includes folding the sails. It is a ritual and a time to reflect on the sail we've just completed and life in general and to bond even further with each other.

Is it work? Yep. But we don't shun work doing the thing we love.

[noelex 77]

One advantage of a cutter rig is that all this is very easy .

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by SV_Sweet_Ruca

...
If your "carbon laminate jib" is still in "raceable" condition after 25,000 actual sailing miles, I want to know your sailmaker as I will be calling him with my credit card in hand. Though, I doubt though we have the same definition of "raceable."...

I think Dockhead might be slightly exaggerating the number of miles he has on that jib, (maybe not), but I think it is a carbon laminated radial cut sail less than 100 % heavily built, and it is not tacked across the lifelines and the front of the mast 20 times every Wednesday.

I accept his claim that it is still in excellent condition.