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Old 29-11-2020, 20:05   #16
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Re: Halyard -- splice or knot

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Originally Posted by LoudMusic View Post
I think I've tied buntline hitches without knowing it had a name. Or, rather, not knowing what its name was. Seems every gnarled twist of rope has a name.

And most have an ABOK number
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Old 29-11-2020, 20:14   #17
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Re: Halyard -- splice or knot

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Originally Posted by Rucksta View Post
Splices deliver >70% breaking load of the line.
35% is a good result for a knot.
Some knots rate less than 20%.
That's why you use spectra for halyards
It'll rip the head out of your sail before you have to worry about a knot breaking.

And actual testing shows a bowline at around 60% even more, not 35%

https://caves.org/section/vertical/n...rope-hold.html
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Old 29-11-2020, 20:30   #18
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Re: Halyard -- splice or knot

Why not the appropriately named "Halyard Hitch"? Cinches down very tightly. So tight that you'll probably will need to cut it off when you next end-to-end the halyard. Supposed retains a slightly higher percentage of the rope strength than a bowline - but obviously a splice is much stronger. The tail lies close to the shackle for a very neat knot that doesn't snag on things. You can even trim the end and heat seal it to be almost invisible.

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Old 29-11-2020, 23:32   #19
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Re: Halyard -- splice or knot

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Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
That's why you use spectra for halyards
It'll rip the head out of your sail before you have to worry about a knot breaking.

And actual testing shows a bowline at around 60% even more, not 35%

https://caves.org/section/vertical/n...rope-hold.html
From the linked article.
" By observing the knot tighten down any malfunction became very obvious quickly and resulted in low break strength or a pull out. "

Here's another test.
https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sail...ing-knot-30247

Bowline in 10mm dyneema broke at 35%


Caves.org focused on climbing ropes and used a higher speed pull
Yachting monthly used sailing ropes with a load closer to static.

There are many other tests online with different focus and different results.

So many variables.
I can only conclude knots are less strong than splices.

If you are willing to give up half the line strength to a knot because the buried end of a splice won't run over a sheave
then use a smaller diameter line and or strip the sheath over that part of the length.

If the tail ends up hard to handle due to reduced diameter,
splice in a thicker tail or extra cover.

You will save money on cordage and end up with less weight aloft.

What's not to like about that?

P.S.

If I was paying a rigger to do all these splices I would probably just tie a knot in thicker line.
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Old 30-11-2020, 00:26   #20
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Re: Halyard -- splice or knot

I splice where practical just because I like to splice, I guess. Sometimes a splice just won't do, though. But same line, same place, if it was originally spliced and the splice was not a problem, then a new splice should be okay when you end for end.

If the other end is really hard, try washing it with Joy, then fabric softener. Roll it underfoot for a while, when it is dry. It should loosen up okay. If you can't get it to bury, then by all means, tie directly and skip the shackle. Yes, you lose a lot of strength with a knot vs a splice. However I bet your halyards are about 10x stronger than they need to be.
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Old 30-11-2020, 03:51   #21
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Re: Halyard -- splice or knot

I would never tie a knot in a halyard. Knots in double braid UHMWPE are just -- ick. They are not only weak, but I think they are not all that secure. Plus this stuff is super easy to splice -- the casing is not structural, so you just splice the core like you splice UHMWPE single braid, and sew the cover back on over the splice. Easy peasy.



Splices are not only way stronger, but they are much more compact. I don't want that bulky bunched up lump up there.



I not only don't knot halyards, I don't knot UHMWPE at all. It's just too slippery for a strong, secure knot. And it's a snap to splice. All the running rigging on my boat is dyneema. Sheets get spliced loops at the end, for soft shackles.
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Old 30-11-2020, 05:00   #22
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Re: Halyard -- splice or knot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rucksta View Post
From the linked article.
" By observing the knot tighten down any malfunction became very obvious quickly and resulted in low break strength or a pull out. "

Here's another test.
https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sail...ing-knot-30247

Bowline in 10mm dyneema broke at 35%
.

All I can say is I have raced and cruised extensively on 32 to 42 ft multihulls where weight saving and performance was a priority and in 20 years of it never saw a spectra halyard break at a knot.

Real life example

Bowline on 10mm dyneema - 10mm dyneema was what I used on my 35 ft cat
I reckon 35 % of 10500kg will tear the head out of the mainsail every day of the week.
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Old 30-11-2020, 05:00   #23
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Re: Halyard -- splice or knot

A splice is stronger, but w the crazy WLL's of modern line I dont think its a practical issue.

I prefer to use buntline hitches. Much easier to deal with in the field (vs resplicing a low stretch line). Ive never had a properly tied and snugged up buntline hitch slip. I tie them with a long tail, just to be sure. This also allows me to visually check them just by eyeballing the tail.

A buntline hitch is also very compact and occuppies much less linear space than even the smallest of bowline...allowing full hoist without interference from the hitch/knot.

Re "tradition". A buntline hitch is very traditional...I learned it on tall ships.
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Old 30-11-2020, 11:59   #24
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Re: Halyard -- splice or knot

Eye splices in old cored lines are notoriously difficult to do because the lubricants that new line has between the layers wear out. Any halyard that is old enough to need end-for-ending is going to be a bear to splice -- especially for a tight eye splice for a halyard shackle. We used knots when we changed out our spinnaker halyards... twenty years ago. No problems yet, though it might be getting time to end-for-end them.
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Old 30-11-2020, 14:18   #25
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Re: Halyard -- splice or knot

Thanks for an interesting discussion!


I think I'll skip the splice. But have to decide on Halyard Hitch (new to me) and Buntline (which I know). Both seem to be very similar in attributes.


Spot -- nice knots. Based on the tail exiting in parallel with the standing part, I assume those are Halyard Hitches?


Dockhead -- this line is not really a high tech line, and certainly not a bare HMWPE (dyneema). It is a hybrid double braid. I think this is 8mm, or 6500lb breaking strength. I made new jib halyards this summer out of bare HMWPE, with some creative work to fatten it at the clutches, and they sure are nice. But the jibs go up once a year, so the thin line for 80% is a bonus (easy to store) even if it's hard to handle. I'm wrestling with how to handle the main, which is hoisted every day. Until I suss out my way forward with HMWPE, I'll keep this VPC halyard for at least one more season. Yes, one way to deal with it is to cover the entire 70' tail.


Others concerned about strength -- I believe (as commented elsewhere in responses) that halyards are sized not for ultimate strength, but for handling, chafe, and -- most importantly -- stretch. This results in line that is typically MUCH stronger than required. My halyard has a breaking strength of 6500 pounds. If a knot reduces that to 30% (2000 pounds), I sincerely doubt my winch can apply that much force, or sail tolerate that much force.
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Old 30-11-2020, 15:07   #26
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Re: Halyard -- splice or knot

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Originally Posted by sailingharry View Post
Thanks for an interesting discussion!

Spot -- nice knots. Based on the tail exiting in parallel with the standing part, I assume those are Halyard Hitches?
Thanks. I have one of those 'how to' kits for knots with a shiny book and 2-3 bits of rope but this hitch was missing. I found these instructions in my notes:

Halyard Hitch Knot Tying Instructions
Pass the end of a rope through the shackle and make a turn around the standing line.Make a second turn around the standing line below the first turn. Bring the end of the rope back up to the top of the knot and feed the end down through the two loops just created.Pull working end to tighten the knot and then pull the standing line to seat the knot against the shackle.
https://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/halyard-hitch

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Old 30-11-2020, 15:52   #27
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Re: Halyard -- splice or knot

I like the Brummell splice for the jib sheets. when i used bowlines, tacking was the only bad thing on the boat. I do have a shackle on my main but rethinking it now
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Old 30-11-2020, 15:53   #28
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Re: Halyard -- splice or knot

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Originally Posted by Spot View Post
Thanks. I have one of those 'how to' kits for knots with a shiny book and 2-3 bits of rope but this hitch was missing. I found these instructions in my notes:

Halyard Hitch Knot Tying Instructions
Pass the end of a rope through the shackle and make a turn around the standing line.Make a second turn around the standing line below the first turn. Bring the end of the rope back up to the top of the knot and feed the end down through the two loops just created.Pull working end to tighten the knot and then pull the standing line to seat the knot against the shackle.
https://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/halyard-hitch

Any issue if one was to make two wraps around the shackle?
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Old 30-11-2020, 16:07   #29
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Re: Halyard -- splice or knot

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Originally Posted by sailingharry View Post
I think I'll skip the splice. But have to decide on Halyard Hitch (new to me) and Buntline (which I know). Both seem to be very similar in attributes.

There are at least two very different knots which are called the Halyard Hitch.


One is similar to ABOK#1847 Buntline hitch, ABOK#1912 and ABOK#400 in that the end comes out sideways. Also known as the Jeaneau Halyard knot.:
https://www.animatedknots.com/halyard-hitch-knot

In another, (Post #26) the end comes back along the line and doesn't allow as tight a hoist up to the sheave.
https://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/halyard-hitch




IMNSHO, the first version is superior.
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