Going in to get MOB

[contrail]

Originally Posted by thinwater

If it was your young child? Calm to moderate conditions? You're going to stand there and watch your child drown in a small, calm lake? I doubt that. Yes, you will jump in, if nothing else is going to work. If not, your wife certainly will... and she will kick your ass on several grounds later. And she will win.

I think the OP asked an excellent question. Obviously, we do everything we can to avoid the situation (PFDs, tethers [my daughter got her first full-body harness at ~ 8 months], swimming competence). Rescue swimming is a worthwhile skill--I watched my daughter demonstrate it in anger when a non-swimmer tried to swim. But at the end of the day, I couldn't be a sailor if I did not feel I had the gear and skills to do this under any conditions. Sometimes you have an MOB that just can't do anything on their own.

Obviously, the rules and precautions vary enormously. The OP was asking about a small lake in moderate to calm conditions, probably with warm water. Not that scary to a strong swimmer with a PFD.

This is, by far, the most realistic response. If you think no one will go in, you are very wrong, in most cases. Parent watches a child drown? Spouse watches the other drown? No way. And, I have been in this situation.


All the comments about PFD's and training are very valid, but the key is practicing the ability to quickly return to the MOB, and then STOP the boat, hove to. Sails don't have to be touched, or if they are, not much. Sheets are not whipping around. A line can be thrown or passed, or a person, tied to the boat, can go in. Remember, the most common crew situation is a couple, so all of this has to be done singlehanded, and it is very doable. In my teaching, which I do a lot, we not only practice this, but we do it with a person jumping in. It's not theoretical. And, it can be done pretty quickly. Some of my students have posted YouTubes from the position of the victim.



The problem is that most of the common MOB techniques do not set you up to do this, and are next to useless if you are the only person back onboard. Plus, it''s a whole lot easier to just sail by at a slow speed, and scoop up a light lifejachet, rather than a heavy person. In my opinion, all the advice on equipment, tethers, you name it, are spot on, but very few have actually learned a technique to get the boat back to the MOB and then stop. And, otherwise, it's chaos with a potentially tragic ending.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by jackdale

For those who have never seen Coldwater Boot Camp with Dr Gordon Giesbrecht, (Professor Popsicle), it show be essential viewing.

Cold Water Boot Camp

From the site

Dr Gordon Giesbrecht coined the phrase 1-10-1 to describe the three critical phases of cold water immersion. Over many years, Gordon has researched the effects of cold water immersion on hundreds of subjects and has personally experienced those effects himself over 30 times.


click image to view video

1 - 10 - 1
1-10-1 is a simple way to remember the first three phases of cold water immersion and the approximate time each phase takes.


1 - Cold Shock. An initial deep and sudden Gasp followed by hyperventilation that can be as much as 600-1000% greater than normal breathing. You must keep your airway clear or run the risk of drowning. Cold Shock will pass in about 1 minute. During that time concentrate on avoiding panic and getting control of your breathing. Wearing a lifejacket during this phase is critically important to keep you afloat and breathing.



10 - Cold Incapacitation. Over approximately the next 10 minutes you will lose the effective use of your fingers, arms and legs for any meaningful movement. Concentrate on self rescue initially, and if that isn’t possible, prepare to have a way to keep your airway clear to wait for rescue. Swim failure will occur within these critical minutes and if you are in the water without a lifejacket, drowning will likely occur.


click image to view video

1 - HYPOTHERMIA. Even in ice water it could take approximately 1 hour before becoming unconscious due to Hypothermia. If you understand the aspects of hypothermia, techniques of how to delay it, self rescue and calling for help, your chances of survival and rescue will be dramatically increased.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by contrail

This is, by far, the most realistic response. If you think no one will go in, you are very wrong, in most cases. Parent watches a child drown? Spouse watches the other drown? No way. And, I have been in this situation.


All the comments about PFD's and training are very valid, but the key is practicing the ability to quickly return to the MOB, and then STOP the boat, hove to. Sails don't have to be touched, or if they are, not much. Sheets are not whipping around. A line can be thrown or passed, or a person, tied to the boat, can go in. Remember, the most common crew situation is a couple, so all of this has to be done singlehanded, and it is very doable. In my teaching, which I do a lot, we not only practice this, but we do it with a person jumping in. It's not theoretical. And, it can be done pretty quickly. Some of my students have posted YouTubes from the position of the victim.



The problem is that most of the common MOB techniques do not set you up to do this, and are next to useless if you are the only person back onboard. Plus, it''s a whole lot easier to just sail by at a slow speed, and scoop up a light lifejachet, rather than a heavy person. In my opinion, all the advice on equipment, tethers, you name it, are spot on, but very few have actually learned a technique to get the boat back to the MOB and then stop. And, otherwise, it's chaos with a potentially tragic ending.

The problem with all these posts is that they are covering for the master’s failure crew management.

It starts with wearing a harness and clipping in. I have had boarding waves at night in 4-6’ seas.

If it was child or grandchild it might be different. Those who have had formal OSHA training, know about the Superman syndrome. People with no plan try to rescue someone. It usually results in 2 fatalities. Suppose loosing one meant ensuring 5 live? Or do you risk the second best swimmer on the boat? Never want to have to make that choice!! Once again comes to proper crew management.

If someone falls overboard not clipped in- poor crew management.

If someone falls in while clipped in, master did not set his jack lines right. BUT if they are using correct harness, getting them aboard should NOT require anyone getting wet

If there is chaos on the boat - poor planning by master.

In the end be it a pro or amateur, it falls on the master. If getting everyone home requires Superman-like feats, that only show p$$$ poor planning by the master.

After many years working in utilities and on the water THERE ARE NO ACCIDENTS- there is only the failure of individuals to follow safe procedures.

[Kerry1]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

I sure wish there was a way to edit from my android. You'd think I'd learn. I once found out the hard way that my spell check swapped "horny" for "hungry". Man, I took guff for a month at work when I sent a broadcast text saying I was headed out for a quick lunch and asking if anyone was "hungry."

It's a serious business but it's hard not to laugh at the typo's which gave me an image of a frowning child forced to wear a "PDF" to keep him out of harm's way. I guess he had cause for frowning!

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

A long time ago, I had the experience of being a water safety instructor, a certificate you get after lifesaving. In the lifesaving course, one of the things they teach you is what to do if the "victim" panics and tries to climb on you. If you are seriously entertaining the idea of jumping in after your child (and sometimes this decision is an impulse you act on, without thinking it through), I think you'd both do well to take a lifesaving course first. You will be taught to take them a flotation device, and also how to get away when the victim views you as a piece of dry land and climbs up on you [and they do]. Even a 6 year old who is panicked can do a world of harm. So learn some skills. Do not plan on reasoning with anyone who is panicked.

Which ever one of you is acting skipper that day really doesn't want to have to deal with two POB in the water. Double trouble. If you suddenly have 2 pob in the water, get on the radio and put out a Mayday, being sure to include your position, both by lat/lon and by geographical reference (500 m. SW of Green Point, or whatever it is.) Speak slowly and clearly. Repeat whole message. Then try to rescue the more vulnerable one first.

If you AND the kids wear flotation devices all the time above decks on the boat,* it is much more likely that the child won't panic in the water, and whoever is available can get the child back aboard. *Kids have less resistance to wearing them if you set a good example.

Swimming lessons for the kids will help you, too. You can remind them to float on their back like they learned, and wait for you to bring the boat back. Beginning swimming lessons are a lot about just "water proofing" kids, and beginning to swim, usually crawl stroke. They can go on and learn more if they're interested.

Ann

Thats always one of my concerns on the water w parents & children...that the child will go OB and the parent will do something foolish. Now you have 2 victims in the water to rescue.

I grew up around plenty of dangerous water...multiple drownings were not uncommon...due to parent/sibling/friend impulsively jumping in to "save" the victim without a clue or relevant training/experience...resulting in 2 deaths.

Ive been involved in a few MOB/drowning/diving/boating rescues. Ive always avoided getting in the water with the victim unless there was no other viable option. ALWAYS avoid getting close to them. Last year I rescued a naive swimmer from rip currents...I managed to appropriate a surf board and used that to keep my distance. She was very nearly a gonner (learn to recognize what drowning really looks like...there were half a dozen other people within sight of her and none recognized that she was moments from drowning).

One scenario where going into the water is likely the only viable option is with pets...so far Ive rescued 1 dog, 3 cats, 2 parrots.

Advice to all who think they might find themselves in this position: get some training. There are plenty of options available to anyone who lives in/near a large population center. A little lifesaving/first aid training goes a long way to keeping both you and the victim alive.

[Cadence]

I think MOB drills are fine, but it is somewhat of a controlled situation. When the rubber meets the road in real life it may have more the do with temperament or previous experience of being in other situations which require a cool head.

[NedX]

While subscribing thoroughly to all the ideas about prevention (pfds, tethers, clips, mob drills) I'd like to go back to the swimming part.

The most common boating accident I've seen happens when someone goes in the water and realizes too far from safety that they aren't as strong a swimmer as they thought/used to be/were when they were a kid.

If jumping in and swimming to shore is even a last-minute contingency, then I'd make sure that anyone who might decide to do that trains to swim across a lake.

Also, I like the idea of lifesaving classes. For my certification, the final test was a 200-pound guy you're supposed to save who simulates a panicking drowning person and tries to drown you. If you can handle that, the reasoning was, you can handle a six-year-old.

ABOUT ME: I raised two kids on boats. We used to practice MOB drills with flotation devices. One day, mom fell in. Everyone screamed and panicked, but one kid kept his eyes on her and the other tossed in a ring. We jibed, came up wind, and got her on board fine. But they hated sailing after that.

[jackdale]

For anyone interested I have uploaded the slides that describe the four MOB techniques I teach. Two are under sail; two are under power.

https://www2.slideshare.net/JackDale...ard-techniques

[Gadagirl]

Originally Posted by DanielI

Good advice on the life-saving course. Unfortunately, the pandemic is likely to make this unavailable before summer ‘22

I don't know where you live but hopefully much of the world will be vacinated by the fall of 2021. No reason that you and your family couldn't take courses in life saving. Even if they're conducted in a 12 foot indoor pool during the fall or winter. It would teach a create confidence. And kids understand the training and come away confident. If your worried about it then training can only help.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by jackdale

For anyone interested I have uploaded the slides that describe the four MOB techniques I teach. Two are under sail; two are under power.

https://www2.slideshare.net/JackDale...ard-techniques

Some of my other slide shows are there as well.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by CarlF

... Drowning people don't look like they're drowning. And a drowning person quickly loses the ability to call for help. If a child can't say they're OK - they're probably not. And you then have less than 2 minutes to get to them.

Hopefully most people with kids have seen this:
https://slate.com/technology/2013/06...the-water.html

I saw a teenager start to go down. We were anchored in about 7 feet of water. They all said they could swim, and we anchored for a swim break. My wife actually waved at the kid who was sinking. My daughter was the only one that noticed the signs, dove over my head, and got to him in a hurry. Realizing what was happening, I towed a kayak that was in the water to them. Happy ending.


But yeah, there are lots of people who think they can swim if they can do a few strokes in a pool.



The other thing I will say to brown water sailors, is that once the head goes below the water you aren't going to find them.

[DanielI]

Originally Posted by Gadagirl

I don't know where you live but hopefully much of the world will be vacinated by the fall of 2021.

I live in the US, and I think this is unfortunately optimistic, although I was assuming such courses would need to be in the summer, which may not be true.

[DanielI]

Originally Posted by Snore

The problem with all these posts is that they are covering for the master’s failure crew management.
...
After many years working in utilities and on the water THERE ARE NO ACCIDENTS- there is only the failure of individuals to follow safe procedures.

I disagree. It is true that, if proper precautions are followed, a real problem requires multiple points of failure. But we are dealing with people. People can be tired, stressed, etc. People can make reasonable judgements which turn out to be wrong. Multiple mechanical failures or unpredictable weather events can happen. Yes, there is usually an element of something that, in theory, could have been avoided. But, in a nobody is perfect situation, tarring the person who was unlucky enough to be imperfect at a bad time is really unfair. And it leads to others saying “I would never make that mistake” rather than planning for the reality that mistakes will happen.

Bottom line: too much of a “there are no accidents” attitude can lead to failure to prepare for accidents. Likewise, too much accident preparation can lead people to be sloppy because they think they can recover to easily. Real life, and real safety, requires a balance.

Which is why I really appreciate this discussion.

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by DanielI

I disagree. It is true that, if proper precautions are followed, a real problem requires multiple points of failure. But we are dealing with people. People can be tired, stressed, etc. People can make reasonable judgements which turn out to be wrong. Multiple mechanical failures or unpredictable weather events can happen. Yes, there is usually an element of something that, in theory, could have been avoided. But, in a nobody is perfect situation, tarring the person who was unlucky enough to be imperfect at a bad time is really unfair. And it leads to others saying “I would never make that mistake” rather than planning for the reality that mistakes will happen.

Bottom line: too much of a “there are no accidents” attitude can lead to failure to prepare for accidents. Likewise, too much accident preparation can lead people to be sloppy because they think they can recover to easily. Real life, and real safety, requires a balance.

Which is why I really appreciate this discussion.

My sentiments exactly!!!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by meirriba

I do not believe that there is a single definitive answer to the question.
It will always depend on the circumstances, e. g. who fell out, in what state he is, what is the sea state, how many crew are onboard, who jumps after the MOB...
As an example:
We were in a regatta, racing.
A crew from the boat in front of us fell from the bow. The guy was partially handicapped, and basically would not be able to swim.
He was without an PFD.
The helmsman of his boat jumped after him, held his head up, out of the water. Basically, saved his life.
We picked them up, while their boat spent some time, getting someone to helm, taking the spi down and tacking back towards the scene.

Indeed.


We did extensive work, research, and training on how to deal with MOB in very cold water, before our trip to the Arctic two years ago.


If the victim is incapacitated, your chances of saving him out of cold water are slim to none if you don't put someone into the water to help.



So we practiced -- MOB practice with people actually going into the icy water -- sending a rescue swimmer in a drysuit.



You keep the rescue swimmer tethered to the boat. Rescue swimmer does NOT wear a PFD. Strong swimmer in a drysuit.


Other part of the equation is a strong way to retrieve people back on board. There are different ways to do this, but the way we selected and practiced was tackle off the end of the preventered-out boom.


The best rescue swimmer among our crew was able to get back on board without the tackle. But she was tethered at all times so that in case something happened, we could pull her back on board without her help.


This approach won't work with a short-handed crew, one of many reasons not to sail that way.