Genoa and stay sail upwind

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Networker

Runners at all wind speeds or just higher speeds? I didn’t see the mast pumping or even bend at all with both sails out in 8-12kts, curious what the rule of thumb is for when runners are needed? All the time or just higher speeds?

I'm not familiar with the rig on your boat, how the shrouds are led or the mast section #s, so I cannot speak to that.
Runners become more needed when the wind strength reaches the point that you want to take-in the Yankee/reef the main.
They are also used to prevent "pumping" in big seas where the boat is alternately in the trough/crest.
I've never used the staysail with a big genoa.

[DefinitelyMe]

I would be surprised if you genuinely point higher (COG) with both headsails set.

Yes you'll probably be faster on a reach. Slot effect. It's one of the reasons that tall ships have multiple headsails instead of just one big one (the other being ease of handling).

Asymmetric spinnakers with headsails don't work the same way. The airflow coming off the chute is totally different. It doesn't accelerate the air over the back of the headsail properly, through the slot.

Personally I always have my check stays on opposing the inner headstay, even if there's no sail set on the stay, when at sea. In flat water you want less sag = check stays on. In lumpy water you want less pumping = check stays on. Aluminium fatigues. Minimisation of cyclic loads and bending is therefore always a good thing. You might not feel you need them, but they can't hurt except for the inconvenience. The point at which you definitely need them is a matter of personal choice; how interested you are in performance and how much pumping you (or your mast) can tolerate. I'm probably jaded and overly conservative having experienced two rig failures from fatigue.

[jharding]

I pull my staysail first every time I go sailing and tighten the windward running back,. It makes tacking easy and the Genoa sheets don't burn the sunbrella sun cover on the rolled up staysail.

[wingssail]

It's my feeling that a staysail is not beneficial on a close winded boat. It may be helpful when slightly off the wind or on a boat which is not terrific upwind.

For the best upwind performance you need very close sheeting angles (less than 8%) and flat sails. On many boats there isn't much room to insert a staysail within that 8% so the staysail can't do much.

Generally, a cutter rig is not as close winded. So, for a cutter rig the staysail probably adds to the power (speed) and may contribute to pointing (I am not convinced of that).

What we see in racing boats are staysails used when they are close reaching or further off the wind than that. We also see genoas used with asymmetrical spinnakers set on long sprits. Again, this is not for upwind work. Some of the biggest yachts have mast set very far aft so there is more room for a staysail.

As for running backstays, generally they are set to offset the load of staysail. With the square top mainsails seen on many new boats a permanent backstay is not feasible, running backstays to the mast head are needed.

On boats with very bendy masts we see running backstays at the top third and further down, checkstays. In this case the runners are to control mast bend and the checkstays are for fine tuning of mainsail shape. On these bendy masts a baby stay forward of the mast is added to prevent pumping.

Back to the cutter rigged boats. Quite often these boats have stiffer masts and fore and aft lower shrouds, all of which add to stiffness. In many conditions the running back stays do not need to be set, but certainly if stronger winds and bigger seas are present, where pounding or slamming is occurring, the runner is needed for safety of the mast.

We have a bendy 3 spreader mast with runners, check stays, and baby stay. We use them all.

[Searles]

Depends what you are calling a Genoa ,and not many boats are factory built as full cutters ,a high clue Yankee cut is normally used with a stay sail a true Genoa is often a deck scraper with overlap, not ideal for a full rig cutter .⛵️⚓️

[Searles]

I would dispute wingssail ,the latest generation of super maxies I/e Commanchie and her ilk are all full rig cutters as determined by there mast position and multi head sails ,.⛵️⚓️

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Searles

I would dispute wingssail ,the latest generation of super maxies I/e Commanchie and her ilk are all full rig cutters as determined by there mast position and multi head sails ,.⛵️⚓️

Yeah, I said that, you probably missed it buried in all the other useless words I wrote, but: "Some of the biggest yachts have mast set very far aft so there is more room for a staysail."

They don't refer to themselves as cutters and even Commanchie won't likely be using a staysail when sailing close hauled. I could be wrong. Can you find any photo or other information which shows otherwise?

By the way, these boats do not have "multi head sails". A head sail is either set at the head of the boat ie; at the bow, or goes to the mast head. Most staysails and most cutters have sails set on a "stay" which is neither at the bow or at the mast head. Yes, however, the big ocean racers you refer to have sails which tack somewhere on the foredeck aft of the bow and often use a halyard which comes out of the mast near the masthead. Often there is no "stay" that they are set on.

The thing is, the terminology is used loosely.

[Orion Jim]

This is a true cutter. Mast placement is much closer to amidships than on a sloop, or a double headsail sloop. I do not have running backstays, I have foreword and aft lower shrouds and, in addition, what the builder described as intermediates which run from a point on the mast aft of the staysail stay to fixed chainplates aft of the after lower shrouds. I have never experienced flexing or pumping under a variety of conditions including a full gale in the Gulf Stream.
In addition to the mainsail and staysail I have a #1 and a #2 yankee. I always use my staysail except when running downwind as it will blanket the yankee and cause it to luff.
This is a photo of me on a close reach in 15 knots apparent. All sails are pulling nicely.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by wingssail

The thing is, the terminology is used loosely.

Truer words are seldom spoken.
In the old days, jibs that were hoisted on their own luffs, (not attached to a stay,) were known as "flying jibs", i.e., they were "set flying".
And all sails set forward of a mast, but which had their tack fitting at the stem or inboard of the stem, (or even between masts,) were "Staysails", not jibs.
Jibs were tacked outboard of the stem on a "Jib boom", which was mounted on top of the "bowsprit", the bowsprit being a structural appendage that supported the jib boom.
Also, in the pic that Orion Jim shows of his CD31, the stay that goes from the masthead to the bowsprit/jib boom was called a "Jibstay", not a headstay.
Headstays go from the Masthead to the Stemhead.
And the staysail is set on a Forestay, not an "inner forestay", (because it's the only one, terms like "inner" or "outer" are irrelevant.
Yes, so much of the terminology is used quite loosely, or has been lost.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Smokeys Kitchen

We also have a cutter rig. The running backs attach on the mast opposite the staysail to prevent the mast from inverting especially in heavier air and larger seas.

Boatie - what is the reason you can point higher in light to moderate winds with the staysail out in conjunction with the genoa? I have always thought the genoa alone allowed better pointing

Don't ask me the reason, I am but a simple Seaman.. all I know is with my Hunter 37c (Cherubini) I could outpoint other boats going to windward and beat boats longer than me..
I assumed it was down to good sail trim and aerodynamics of 3 wings not just 2 to suck me into the wind more efficiently.

[Don C L]

If you can trim 3 sails and get better windward performance, more power to you. The only boat I have sailed that had a staysail did not sail better upwind when flying the staysail. It seemed to have more drag than drive to me. But it was a heavy displacement boat. A true cutter rig, with a yankee and staysail, and a higher performance hull, will do better I bet. I too wonder about the size of the genoa you are using. If it is too big you may have the sensation of greater speed, but how is your VMG actually? My feeling (and feelings are not facts of course) is that the staysail offered too much turbulence, and too little enhancement, in the slot to be an advantage. But I'd sure love to hear a salimaker's take on it.
Jim on your CD, I wonder what would happen if you are pointing as close to the wind as you can with the staysail up and then you drop it; do you think you will notice a difference?
And you have a Yankee, not a Genoa, in my book, so I would guess you will see better upwind performance than some with a furling Genoa out there.

[boatman61]

She was a basic boat, no electric toys for VMG.. just the fact I was as fast and sometimes faster than Bene 40's in certain winds around Poole and the Solent
I should add the stay sail had a boom and could be trimmed as opposed to self tacking.
High cut genny 110.. not a deck sweeper.

[Bowdrie]

Perhaps this has little bearing on the issue about VMG/CMG on a cutter as regarding cruising.
The famous sailor John Illingworth used the cutter rig to advantage in racing.
He developed large "Genoa Staysails" used in conjunction with small jibs.
As staysails largely escaped being penalized under the rules whilst large jibs were taxed, he was able to get his rating reduced and be competitive.
I've wanted to try out the concept, but it hasn't been high on the list of "to do" things.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by danstanford

My mind jumped immediately to a discussion about using the staysail with asymmetrical kites on race boats. Someone observed that they saw a half knot increase when they put the staysail up and half a knot increase when they took it down!

I still find it funny (as they intended)!

I do exactly this. And, as a side benefit, I can run deeper downwind without the pole by pulling the staysail to the windward side. I'm guessing the air deflected from the staysail is exerting some.outward pressure on the asym. I've got a video of it somewhere, I'll post it if I can.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Networker

I’ve not been able to find much info online to answer this; we have a cutter rigged boat and experimented with putting the Genoa and stay sail out at the same time when going upwind in conditions 8-12kts, and it seemed to really give us a boost in speed. Is this advisable and a normal thing to do? Any issues with doing this?

I suspect it depends on your foresail combination.

I run a small high cut yankee and a generous staysail. The boat makes waaaaay better progress to windward with both set together. And way better than she makes with just the genoa, which now lives in a bag in the sail locker.

However, it is essential that you get plenty of tension on the runners. The slightest sag of the staysail luff ruins the slot effect and the interplay between the two sails. To this end I've fitted dynema runners with 4:1 block. I give those a very serious heave after I tack and watch to see that the stsysail luff has straightened adequately. If I'm feeling a bit limp wristed I'll run the line to a winch and tweak the tension that way.