Examples of a two crew watch rotation for an ocean crossing?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

When and under what conditions would crew sleep over ride the requirement for a human watch? Is that even possible? Is a sleep deprived watch even worth having? Its really hard to quantify and begs for common sense to be used.

Well, of course. Obviously, human beings can't function without sleep. That's why single handers just have to do it, and have to throw out the rules and take the risk (and impose the risk on other traffic) on long passages.



There's no excuse for this with more than one person on board. With two people, you can have 12 hours a day with both awake, and one awake the entire other 12 hours, and both still get a sort of OK amount of sleep.

Of course, if you screw the pooch and end up with TWO people who are BOTH so sleep deprived that no one can function, then you end up like the single hander and you have no choice. But you should not get into this position absent some really exceptional circumstance.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by slug

To manage fatigue I slow down

Things happen slowly at 3 knots

Or heave to.


We've had this discussion before. In my opinion, the most seamanlike way to get sleep as a single hander is to heave to and show NUC signals and sleep to your heart's content. Get up the next morning and start the next day's passage with a fresh cup of coffee and a song in your heart.


This does not technically fit the NUC definition but it fits the intention and spirit of NUC to a "T"; so much so that I think such a practice might even be covered by Rule 2. It is seamanlike because you are clearly communicating to any other vessels who might appear that you are not under command and that you are not going to maneuver. So it makes it absolutely clear what the other vessel has to do -- a key value in the COLREGS.


Just don't do it unless you're well offshore and well away from any sea lanes.



Some single handers won't like this because they lose miles, but what price safety, and what price compliance with the Rules? And hove to you can't run anybody down. Imagine you are asleep and under way and you run down a small boat full of teenagers. Or a fishing boat with natives, like the Clipper race boat ran down a couple of years ago. Not many of those out there far offshore, but not zero. Do you have the right to risk killing people because you went to sea with inadequate crew resources to fulfill Rule 5? I rather think you don't. Heave to.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by tradrockrat

Well, as the OP, I would like to inform everyone that I was told on pg 3 of my anchor thread to take whatever kmacdonald said and do the opposite.

And that is still sound advice in any thread.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

I suggest you guys may be arguing for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. I've sailed with some people that claim experience but are afraid of their own shadow. They see a ship on the far off horizon and later write how they were almost run over by a supertanker doing 50 kts. Actual statistics need to be analyzed to make an informed, rational decision. Of course only rational people without an ax to grind will be able to do that.

Says that man who claims to regularly cross within a few feet of large ships

[StuM]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

We are talking about ocean crossing passages here. Not congested waterways or inshore-nearshore sailing. There is a HUGE difference in the watchkeeping required for the two DIFFERENT scenarios. Maybe not different legally but practically.

Have you ever done one?

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by StuM

Says that man who claims to regularly cross within a few feet of large ships

I leave at least 200 yards clearance, unless I'm in a race. Rarely cross in front of them, unless racing of course.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

I leave at least 200 yards clearance, unless I'm in a race. Rarely cross in front of them, unless racing of course.

I frequently have difficulty in working out which of your posts are trolling and which ones are just plain ignorance, but I think I know which one this is.

[slug]

Originally Posted by StuM

I frequently have difficulty in working out which of your posts are trolling and which ones are just plain ignorance, but I think I know which one this is.

At sea My crew must use 4 miles as CPA

No exception

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The Rules are NOT different depending where you sail: "Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing. . . " -- Rule 5. Not "some times", not "when awake", not "when in a high traffic area", but at all times. There is no ambiguity.

What part of “rules” (read behaviour) is complicating things for you? Did you think that meant I was quoting regulations?

Originally Posted by Dockhead

This guy wasn't broadcasting AIS, as many vessels do not. Radar is not infallible.

Clearly, from your experience neither are humans. So the guy got your AIS signal which for some perverse reason did not show him your course and he took no avoiding action because he never understood a tricolour nav light (huh?). And because you weren’t paying attention a collision was on the cards even though you were using “all the systems at your disposal” including the much-vaunted Mark 1 Eyeball. And then you thanked him for his “vigilance and seamanship” while he was in charge of a vessel with inadequate nav lights and was unable to interpret a tricolour lamp. Give me a break.

So in essence your belts-and-braces approach never worked any better than my distinctly illegal and un-seamanlike one.

At least if you and I are sailing in the same waters I know I’ll be safer than you because you’ve got my back. Oh but wait, what if you’re having an inattentive moment and both your radar and AIS are on the blink?

You know what? Never mind. This bickering could have no end. I concede, you’re the master of your destiny and I’m just a lucky fool.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

. . . You know what? Never mind. This bickering could have no end. I concede, you’re the master of your destiny and I’m just a lucky fool.

We are ALL lucky fools, and not one of us is the "master of our destiny". That's why we follow the rules and apply diligence to avoiding collisions at sea.



The Rules are set up so that only one party to a crossing, following the Rules, can procure the resolution of the situation without regard to what the other guy is doing. That's why some REAL fools who don't even attept to keep a watch, mostly get away with it.



The rest of us do the best we can, in good faith, hoping that the inevitable failings of our own, will not meet a corresponding failure in the other vessel. Like what happened in the Orca/Shoreway collision. But those who don't even try? Sorry, but I can't respect that.

[kmacdonald]

If other boats are expected to avoid you when you're hove to why cant they avoid you when you're sleeping?

[kmacdonald]

I even started using nav lights since LEDs came out. What more do you want? Keep up the good watches Stu.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by slug

At sea My crew must use 4 miles as CPA

No exception

I set the zone alarm to 5 miles. Gives me time for a quicky before going up to check things out. Lighten up gentlemen. Sailing is a safe and fun activity. Neptune and the boogy man wont hurt you.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by slug

At sea My crew must use 4 miles as CPA



No exception

What size of vessel are you operating?

I’m beginning to think you’ve got different staff than I can fit in a 32’ sailboat.

Sailing across the GOM I get nervous with less than 1/2 mile CPA.

[kmacdonald]

In the Chesapeake I get right up on them. Doesn't seem to bother them any. In the C & D you pass within 100'. They cant turn very fast so you know they wont veer into you. I even sail the C&D. Never had a problem doing that either. I just cant understand why people are so afraid of ships.