Even Modern anchors can Act Up

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Softer bottoms will take less force to set deep, so less risk of chain wrap. And if you're setting in a decent bit of wind that'll help dig it in at well.

I always back down on mine though. Does 2 things. Digs it in to reduce the risk of chain wrap if the winds are light and shifty. And it confirms that I dropped it on a bottom where the anchor is capable of setting well (rather than having to wait to be totally sure).

Not sure how much backing down will help with my 5 hp outboard which is one of the reasons I bought the Mantus M1 plus it was only $300 with free shipping.

The local consignment shop wanted $225 for a used 35# CQR....

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Y'know I've posited this before in various anchor discussions, and still think it's valid. I think there is a point when an anchor is too big to be "set" sufficiently with the means available. Not necessarily saying your anchor is too big, but speaking generically.

It's definitely possible for at least some conditions. But realistically, I think most boats will reach the point where the anchor becomes too large to carry in a reasonable manner before it's so big that it can't be set adequately (outside of a narrow range of conditions such as very hard bottoms).

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Not sure how much backing down will help with my 5 hp outboard which is one of the reasons I bought the Mantus M1 plus it was only $300 with free shipping.

The local consignment shop wanted $225 for a used 35# CQR....

You won't be able to put a lot of force on it, but with a little momentum and feeling how it stops the boat it'll at least be enough to be sure it set (which means it has a decent shot at re-setting if you get a sudden wind shift that's enough to pop it loose).

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

You won't be able to put a lot of force on it, but with a little momentum and feeling how it stops the boat it'll at least be enough to be sure it set (which means it has a decent shot at re-setting if you get a sudden wind shift that's enough to pop it loose).

I doesn't usually pop loose with my drift set technique. .......here anyway.

My usually area being about 100 miles X 35 miles plus up different bays and creeks off the Chesapeake.

I have the Mantus M1 25 lb'er for when I try anchoring on different bottoms one day in the future.

It's huge also.

[ItDepends]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Y'know I've posited this before in various anchor discussions, and still think it's valid. I think there is a point when an anchor is too big to be "set" sufficiently with the means available. Not necessarily saying your anchor is too big, but speaking generically.

I might agree that an anchor can be big enough to pass the point of marginal utility. Extra weight is bad on the pointy end of a boat, but there is NO situation where an anchor can possibly be "too big" to hold the boat effectively. And VERY few cruising boats have the ability to store and deploy an anchor that is "too big" by any measure.

With an proper modern anchor on the bottom, there are only two possible cases:

1. The anchor is not moving, or,
2. It is.

If it is NOT moving then no problem. The boat is going no where and we are happy. I don't really care how "set" it is...

If the anchor IS moving, then it WILL dig in and set, no matter how big it is. After all the anchor has no magic information that tells it the boat pulling on it is "too small". It will dig in and "set" until it balances the force pulled against it, and the boat stops, and we are happy (See Case #1)

The claim that an anchor can be "too big to work" requires jumping though some weird logic hoops.

• If I tie my 50 foot boat to a 1000 lb ship anchor (of any design), it is going nowhere, ever.
• If I tie my boat to a 20 lb anchor (of any design), I'll drift all over the anchorage in a fresh breeze.
• If I tie to a 100 lb anchor M1, I'll stay put in a hurricane (done that).

So the argument is that there is SOME size anchor bigger than 100lb and less than 1000 that will work LESS effectively at holding my boat. That leaves me totally unconvinced in the absence of data.

For example, I will bet whatever odds you want to give that my 100 lb main bower will hold my dinghy in one spot forever, even if it is not "set" effectively... And it is obviously "too big."

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by ItDepends

but there is NO situation where an anchor can possibly be "too big" to hold the boat effectively.

I think you've misread what I said. I said too big to be "set" effectively, and note I put set in quotations. "Set" is a very personal quality, and as you can see from the second response to the OP, some apparently don't consider an anchor to be "set" if the entire fluke isn't completely buried. An anchor dropped on the sea-bed will hold a boat effectively in certain conditions, but it's not "set."
The amount of "horsepower" available to you, whether that's provided by engine, wind or current is finite - so if you can't generate enough force to bury the anchor to the depth you consider sufficient to be what you consider to be "set", then the anchor is too big.

[Off Trail]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Y'know I've posited this before in various anchor discussions, and still think it's valid....



Do you have a mixed rode or was that all chain; what was the scope?.

I was a bit tongue in cheek of course. There will always be cases where the whole anchor doesn't dive during the set.

We are all chain, 50' out in 8-9 feet of water. Looking at the anchor alarm history, the boat had been wandering all around and over the anchor. Except for the initial set, the rode had never been fully extended.

Oh and in case anyone asks, of course I fixed the situation as soon as I saw it.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Off Trail

We are all chain, 50' out in 8-9 feet of water.

I would call that under-scoped, but YMMV. 8-9' water depth + 3-4' height of bow roller = 4:1 scope give or take.

I would probably have about 150' out, and would have likely had a little circle of chain about 60' from the anchor in those circumstances, but a little more wind and could easily wrap the anchor. It's always a roll of the dice.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by ItDepends

... but there is NO situation where an anchor can possibly be "too big" to hold the boat effectively....

The problem with overly broad statements is that there are always exceptions.


A Fortress that is too large to bury in a firm bottom will easily rotate out in a wind shift, and will then plane along, flukes upwards, not even touching the bottom if the boat drifts at 2 knots or so. See it happen, had it happen to me. It is easy to have a Fortress that is well-sized for super soft mud and way too big to fully set in very firm sand or in the presence of shells and grass. It is not too big for its purpose, but too big for the bottom in question.


A Fortress 1-2 sizes down will bury well and be VERY hard to unset. A Even a 2-pound Guardian power set in a firm bottom can be a real bugger to get out. An FX-17 set in the same bottom, in the same manned will come out with one hand. Done both, side by side.


Does this apply to the Mantus or other GP anchors? No, not really, or at least, not as dramatically. I have seen bottoms, though, where I am unconvinced bigger was better; a smaller anchor set more easily and better, and held more than enough. But this is unusual and I would not defend it as a rule or anything more than an occasional exception.


But the Fortress case is real. They can easily be oversized for a firm bottom.

[Secondshift]

Well all's well that ends well.

When I read the post title I thought surely a 180 degree shift produced a

giant persistent clump of whatnot rendering the "modern" anchor impotent.

I have observed this occurrence locally more than once. We have a sort of mucky muck bottom.


Owing to it's super powers people tend to be drastically under scoped for the

occasional 60 plus mile an hour thunderstorm that we have in the summer

months.

We also experience frequent wind shifts and it's seldom that I see a boat

reset for the new angle.


I'm certain I had a vintage brochure for the " New MODERN lightweight"

Danforth anchor from the mid 1900's so I'm wondering if from here on we

could refer to the modified spade anchors as "post modern"?


Best Regards All

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Caleb_Grey

So you did a poor job setting the anchor, even if it did break out it would have reset in 3-5' so whats the problem with modern anchors again?

Really? That's your assessment?

Originally Posted by Danm1

Curious if you backed down on it to set? Also, did you circle the anchor afterwards due to wind or tide?

Seems that neither of you read the OP's post. Variable light winds allowed the boat to circle around the anchor, wrap the chain, and there was not enough wind to reset the anchor, if even it would have,

We should thank the OP for sharing. All of us should be aware that swinging around in a circle can possibly (probably) result in this happening, even with the modern, oversized, miracle, anchors. Maybe especially with the modern, oversized, miracle, anchors.

Where ever you anchor, with whatever anchor you use, after swinging around your anchor in a circle you should back down on it to reset. I personally know of three boats lost this way when the anchor did not untangle itself or automatically reset.

So for all of you who think that a modern, oversized, miracle, anchor allows you to sleep soundly at night without a care in the world, think again.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by markpj23

not sure how ANY anchor would behave when fouled like that. Not specific to "modern anchors" IMHO... They're all going to reset, some easier than others.

There's no way a danforth would reset in this case. Don't ask how I know.

[Secondshift]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

There's no way a danforth would reset in this case. Don't ask how I know.

That's why we usually use a "Bahamian" style method with a Danforth type.

That which does not trip need not re set


....because I only need the SHOCK and AWE of my boat not being where I left just that one time.

[bensolomon]

The sketch is really good, too. Definitely thought provoking.

[SV__Grace]

This happens to me all the time and so far (5 years of full time cruising CA and PNW) once set I've never dragged, even in gale conditions.

I used to worry about it and I don't understand what's going on down there (too cold to dive unless it's an emergency) but I've learned to trust my anchor (currently an oversized Excel) and setting technique as they've apparently been working well.

A couple of times the anchor has come up wrapped in chain. Perhaps the weight alone of an oversized anchor and chain rode is enough to hold when well set.

I always set an anchor alarm and have my secondary ready to deploy at a moments notice, but knock wood, so far so good!