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Old 17-01-2025, 05:51   #1
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Etiquette, going alongside another boat.

Hi,

out of curiosity.

Assuming you have a a +45ft boat.

Would you go alongside a much smaller boat (about 35ft) which is already alongside another boat (which is along a concrete dock?
Without asking and with a storm heading towards this spot?

What happens if the innermost boat gets damaged?

Assuming the smaller boat next to them (which is now sandwiched) had taken extra precautions not to get pushed towards the inner most boat by setting two anchors.
Likely this precautions are now useless due to the outermost big boat joining the pack.

Lets say this upfront I consider this not to be good seamanship and to a fair extent reckless and rude.
Especially if one has not asked permission and the owner of the sandwiched and inner boats are not on site.
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Old 17-01-2025, 05:56   #2
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Re: Etiquette, going alongside another boat.

We would never want to "raft" in heavy weather.

Boats won't all move the same way in unison, likely all three (in this example) would be damaged.

We don't usually even stay rafted for an overnight in calm waters; we prefer to break up the raft, set our own anchors, etc.

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Old 17-01-2025, 06:19   #3
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Re: Etiquette, going alongside another boat.

Hmmm. Somehow this doesn't sound like it's purely hypothetical...

Yes, it could be considered rude, unseamanlike and dangerous.

The only excuse I can think of is, in some ports, rafting is the local custom and it's done all the time without asking. One time I woke up to find another boat rafted between me and the dock. They did it so easily and quietly it never even woke me up.

That said, they moved me out because theirs was the larger boat, which of course should always be the one tied to the dock.
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Old 17-01-2025, 06:37   #4
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Re: Etiquette, going alongside another boat.

It all depends. Customs and etiquette vary widely according to country and harbour.

In some harbours (like Bergen in Norway or Skagen in Denmark) rafting is universal and constant and people don't as much ask permission and just discuss how it will be done. In others it's not so common and you'd better ask. I find in the U.S. people are often less welcoming to rafters than in Northern Europe.

The state of the water in the harbour also strongly influences the risk of problems. In really perfect shelter it doesn't matter that much who is rafted to whom. If it's bouncy, then rafting is risky.

In general it's desirable for larger boats to go inside smaller ones and not vice versa, but there's no law against doing it the other way around. We have rafted (with our 54 feet) to 32 foot boats with no problems, but obviously in good weather and conditions and doing it right (lines to shore; never hang off the inside boat, proper fendering, spring lines, etc.).

Good etiquette if you are a smaller, inside boat is to offer to cast off and let the larger boat go inside, then raft outside of the larger boat.

Good etiquette everywhere is to welcome rafters in a friendly and helpful manner, and help them tie up. We hang fenders on the outside as a kind of welcome sign.

And obviously if you are the outside boat, walk over the foredeck to get to shore, and never the afterdeck or through the cockpit, in order to preserve some privacy for the inside boat.

Rafting up is one of those cases where the whole process is vastly better when everyone concerned is friendly, helpful, and considerate to others involved, whether rafters or raftees. Cooperation goes a long, long way, like in so many other things concerning seafaring.


And remember if you have any doubts about how safe it is in some given situation, you can always go anchor somewhere. I prefer to be at anchor anyway in really bad weather, than tied up to something hard, and certainly compared to rafting or being rafted to.
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Old 17-01-2025, 06:42   #5
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Re: Etiquette, going alongside another boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptTom View Post
. . . The only excuse I can think of is, in some ports, rafting is the local custom and it's done all the time without asking. One time I woke up to find another boat rafted between me and the dock. They did it so easily and quietly it never even woke me up.

Indeed. This.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptTom View Post
That said, they moved me out because theirs was the larger boat, which of course should always be the one tied to the dock.

Not necessarily. But it's desirable, and almost always a good idea to swap places with a larger boat rather than have him raft off you.
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Old 17-01-2025, 06:43   #6
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Re: Etiquette, going alongside another boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger58sb View Post
We would never want to "raft" in heavy weather.

Boats won't all move the same way in unison, likely all three (in this example) would be damaged.

We don't usually even stay rafted for an overnight in calm waters; we prefer to break up the raft, set our own anchors, etc.

-Chris

It's always good to remember you have an anchor.
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Old 17-01-2025, 06:56   #7
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Re: Etiquette, going alongside another boat.

With iffy weather coming, I agree, I wouldn't want to be rafted if there were any other option. And if I had to be rafted, I wouldn't want to be outside of a smaller boat, I'd rather have them outside of me.

Worst case, it might be possible for the outer boat to set an anchor as a kedge to keep the rafted boats stretched out slightly to avoid the boats smashing together or against the wall and reducing the risk of damage (fenders can only do so much).
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Old 18-01-2025, 01:59   #8
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Re: Etiquette, going alongside another boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
It all depends. Customs and etiquette vary widely according to country and harbour.

In some harbours (like Bergen in Norway or Skagen in Denmark) rafting is universal and constant and people don't as much ask permission and just discuss how it will be done. In others it's not so common and you'd better ask. I find in the U.S. people are often less welcoming to rafters than in Northern Europe.

The state of the water in the harbour also strongly influences the risk of problems. In really perfect shelter it doesn't matter that much who is rafted to whom. If it's bouncy, then rafting is risky.

In general it's desirable for larger boats to go inside smaller ones and not vice versa, but there's no law against doing it the other way around. We have rafted (with our 54 feet) to 32 foot boats with no problems, but obviously in good weather and conditions and doing it right (lines to shore; never hang off the inside boat, proper fendering, spring lines, etc.).

Good etiquette if you are a smaller, inside boat is to offer to cast off and let the larger boat go inside, then raft outside of the larger boat.

Good etiquette everywhere is to welcome rafters in a friendly and helpful manner, and help them tie up. We hang fenders on the outside as a kind of welcome sign.

And obviously if you are the outside boat, walk over the foredeck to get to shore, and never the afterdeck or through the cockpit, in order to preserve some privacy for the inside boat.

Rafting up is one of those cases where the whole process is vastly better when everyone concerned is friendly, helpful, and considerate to others involved, whether rafters or raftees. Cooperation goes a long, long way, like in so many other things concerning seafaring.


And remember if you have any doubts about how safe it is in some given situation, you can always go anchor somewhere. I prefer to be at anchor anyway in really bad weather, than tied up to something hard, and certainly compared to rafting or being rafted to.
Well said!
And, watch out for mast & spreader conflicts.



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Old 18-01-2025, 02:50   #9
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Re: Etiquette, going alongside another boat.

Dockhead currently sails a lot in Denmark where rafting up in the harbors is normal (small harbors) I've been number 14 out once. Believe it or not the innermost boat decoded to leave and somehow he managed to do that without all of us having to deraft.

In Denmark it is considered courteous to ask when the inside boat is planning to leave before rafting up. If they are leaving in the morning and you are planning to stay several nights then switch places.

In heavy weather people still raft up, just deploying all the fenders they have and perhaps adding lines directly to shore from their outer boat
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Old 18-01-2025, 04:11   #10
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Re: Etiquette, going alongside another boat.

So,

time to disclose, it was an actual situation.

It was in the Mediterranean, where rafting up is not a very common practice.


Despite my fears all went well, even though it was quite tense at times I am told.
Luckily no damage occurred.
What a huge relief.

One of the problems was, that I was about 1500km from the boat and could do nothing about it.
When I heard about the other boat being alongside it was to late to get a flight in time to rearrange things or moving my boat to a safe anchorage at the south end of the bay.
The corner where the boats where is in general the best place in the bay, but not in a SE turning to SW.

We had 50kn gusts & 5m waves going into the bay from SE, which in itself was not a huge problem as we were enough sheltered from this, but the wind was shifting to S-SW in the afternoon.
In turn it started to push all the wave mess into the NW end corner of the bay.

Despite the owner of the other apparently handling the situation reasonably well, I still feel it was not good seamanship/judgement to moor alongside us as third and biggest boat with the forecast we had.

Unfortunately the other neighbours were on a day trip so could not stop them doing so.

What did I learn?

Really minimise the time when not being personally close to the boat, unless you are in a marina.
Which was absolutely not an option due to the costs involved.

Hence we were at the public dock.

Maybe think about a mechanic solution (suggestions?) which prevents others to go alongside. Not a fan of this, but maybe a necessity if not onboard.
Alternatively put a sign up, which might get ignored though.

Personally I'd never go alongside another boat in such a situation if there is a safe anchorage available as alternative.

Anyway, luck had it that all went well, so, no need to be grumpy and look back. Good things ahead.
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Old 18-01-2025, 04:25   #11
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Re: Etiquette, going alongside another boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
So,

time to disclose, it was an actual situation.

Despite my fears all went well, even though it was quite tense at times I am told.
Luckily no damage occurred.
What a huge relief.

One of the problems was, that I was about 1500km from the boat and could do nothing about it.
When I heard about the other boat being alongside it was to late to get a flight in time to rearrange things or moving my boat to a safe anchorage at the south end of the bay.
The corner where the boats where is in general the best place in the bay, but not in a SE turning to SW.

We had 50kn gusts & 5m waves going into the bay from SE, which in itself was not a huge problem as we were enough sheltered from this, but the wind was shifting to S-SW in the afternoon.
In turn it started to push all the wave mess into the NW end corner of the bay.

Despite the owner of the other apparently handling the situation reasonably well, I still feel it was not good seamanship/judgement to moor alongside us with the forecast we had.

Unfortunately the other neighbours were on a day trip so could not stop them doing so.

What did I learn?

Really minimise the time when not being personally close to the boat, unless you are in a marina.
Which was absolutely not an option due to the costs involved.

Hence we were at the public dock.

Maybe think about a mechanic solution (suggestions?) which prevents others to go alongside. Not a fan of this, but maybe a necessity if not onboard.
Alternatively put a sign up, which might get ignored though.

Personally I'd never go alongside another boat in such a situation if there is a safe anchorage available as alternative.


Anyway, luck had it that all went well, so, no need to be grumpy and look back. Good things ahead.
Don't try to prevent it, that's very rude and might have consequences when it's public dock and everyone else has equal right to dock there.
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Old 18-01-2025, 04:33   #12
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Re: Etiquette, going alongside another boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
So,

time to disclose, it was an actual situation.

Despite my fears all went well, even though it was quite tense at times I am told.
Luckily no damage occurred.
What a huge relief.

One of the problems was, that I was about 1500km from the boat and could do nothing about it.
When I heard about the other boat being alongside it was to late to get a flight in time to rearrange things or moving my boat to a safe anchorage at the south end of the bay.
The corner where the boats where is in general the best place in the bay, but not in a SE turning to SW.

We had 50kn gusts & 5m waves going into the bay from SE, which in itself was not a huge problem as we were enough sheltered from this, but the wind was shifting to S-SW in the afternoon.
In turn it started to push all the wave mess into the NW end corner of the bay.

Despite the owner of the other apparently handling the situation reasonably well, I still feel it was not good seamanship/judgement to moor alongside us with the forecast we had.

Unfortunately the other neighbours were on a day trip so could not stop them doing so.

What did I learn?

Really minimise the time when not being personally close to the boat, unless you are in a marina.
Which was absolutely not an option due to the costs involved.

Hence we were at the public dock.

Maybe think about a mechanic solution (suggestions?) which prevents others to go alongside. Not a fan of this, but maybe a necessity if not onboard.
Alternatively put a sign up, which might get ignored though.

Personally I'd never go alongside another boat in such a situation if there is a safe anchorage available as alternative.


Anyway, luck had it that all went well, so, no need to be grumpy and look back. Good things ahead.
If you're in a place where rafting is common and acceptable, then putting a deterrent on your hull would be rude: you have to know, going in originally, that every sort of person is going to tie up alongside, and if that's unacceptable, then you shouldn't go there in the first place.
In parts of Canada and in Greenland, rafting is the norm, and my boat was once the smallest of an inverted pyramid of four in Ilulissat. No problem, until an iceberg calved outside, and sent a surge that filled and drained the harbor really fast a bunch of times. That old raftup really put a strain on my lines, and we exploded a fender.
I took the next chance of a re-shuffle to move to a spot with less flow, inside a raft-up of three.
As long as everyone communicates and is polite and helpful, huge raftups work fine and are very sociable. Boat wiggle in and out all the time, and everyone colaborates to re-shuffle and run lines here and there. It's a great way to meet the neighbors. That said, I'd rather be at the outside of any raftup, and walk over everyone else's boat. On the inside, you're the doormat, and you may as well like people.
I wish rafting up was more normal in the US, and that we had public docks like they have in Greenland and Canada.
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Old 18-01-2025, 06:40   #13
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Re: Etiquette, going alongside another boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benz View Post
If you're in a place where rafting is common and acceptable, then putting a deterrent on your hull would be rude: you have to know, going in originally, that every sort of person is going to tie up alongside, and if that's unacceptable, then you shouldn't go there in the first place.
In parts of Canada and in Greenland, rafting is the norm, and my boat was once the smallest of an inverted pyramid of four in Ilulissat. No problem, until an iceberg calved outside, and sent a surge that filled and drained the harbor really fast a bunch of times. That old raftup really put a strain on my lines, and we exploded a fender.
I took the next chance of a re-shuffle to move to a spot with less flow, inside a raft-up of three.
As long as everyone communicates and is polite and helpful, huge raftups work fine and are very sociable. Boat wiggle in and out all the time, and everyone colaborates to re-shuffle and run lines here and there. It's a great way to meet the neighbors. That said, I'd rather be at the outside of any raftup, and walk over everyone else's boat. On the inside, you're the doormat, and you may as well like people.
I wish rafting up was more normal in the US, and that we had public docks like they have in Greenland and Canada.
Good post!

I agree it's really bad form to try to prevent or discourage other boats from rafting up. It's a question of SHARING the available quay or dock space. It's just gross to hog it for yourself, leaving others with no place to go, when a couple of other boats can use it by rafting up.

Friendliness, welcomingness, and cooperation are absolutely key here as in so many other things concerned with boating.

Do you risk a bit of gel coat damage by welcoming rafters? Sure! That's also part of boating. You risk a bit of gel coat damage any time you go into a crowded harbor.

I can't count the number of times that a less experienced sailor has lost control of his or her boat in a crowded harbor while a tidal current was flowing, and whacked my boat. Sometimes it leaves a mark, sometimes it doesn't. I just smile and wave them off. Because every other year I have my hull polished and any little gel coat issues faired over; one ding more or less makes zero difference, and no difference in cost. It's just part of boating.

I think it's not good form to be freaked out about one's own gel coat, to the extent that one forgets to share the quay space with another boat who needs it.

Another point which Benz touched on is the sociability of rafts. I find they are more often fun, than not. I've met a lot of really interesting people by being rafted to them, or having them rafted to me. This inevitably starts with one or the other inviting the other over for a drink. This is one of the high points of our sport.
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Old 18-01-2025, 07:16   #14
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Re: Etiquette, going alongside another boat.

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Don't try to prevent it, that's very rude and might have consequences when it's public dock and everyone else has equal right to dock there.

Sorry, but I disagree.

If all the spots along the quay are already taken, to bad. First come, first take.
This does not allow you just to go alongside of any boat there is.

I would not just go alongside without asking.

Mind you, if I'm onboard, no problem, ask and if your boat is not much bigger or there is no storm brewing, I'm happy to let you go alongside.
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Old 18-01-2025, 07:18   #15
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Re: Etiquette, going alongside another boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benz View Post
If you're in a place where rafting is common and acceptable, then putting a deterrent on your hull would be rude: you have to know, going in originally, that every sort of person is going to tie up alongside, and if that's unacceptable, then you shouldn't go there in the first place.
In parts of Canada and in Greenland, rafting is the norm, and my boat was once the smallest of an inverted pyramid of four in Ilulissat. No problem, until an iceberg calved outside, and sent a surge that filled and drained the harbor really fast a bunch of times. That old raftup really put a strain on my lines, and we exploded a fender.
I took the next chance of a re-shuffle to move to a spot with less flow, inside a raft-up of three.
As long as everyone communicates and is polite and helpful, huge raftups work fine and are very sociable. Boat wiggle in and out all the time, and everyone colaborates to re-shuffle and run lines here and there. It's a great way to meet the neighbors. That said, I'd rather be at the outside of any raftup, and walk over everyone else's boat. On the inside, you're the doormat, and you may as well like people.
I wish rafting up was more normal in the US, and that we had public docks like they have in Greenland and Canada.

It's not typically done in the Mediterranean.
Especially not in the particular situation described.

Btw. we are not talking about rafting at anchor here. I would never do that or want anyone doing that on my boat without permission.
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