Dropping vs lowering anchor

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by jim King

then back off at 1,500 rpm to make sure we are well dug in and can rest for the night.

At those rpm on ours there would be a very real possibility of my chain snapping, it would certainly be stretched

I am more than happy for weight of boat (65 tonne) wind and current to do the set.
Never failed yet and we have had our fair share of 50+ knot weather.

[Pegu Club]

We use a more controlled method, knowing the depth we lower X amount of chain , then drift back until the anchor grabs and the boat straightens in line with the chain and repeat until appropriate scope is achieved, then we back down to set the anchor more fully. There can be variations relevant to circumstances. There are various schools of thought on this, kinda like what the best anchor is...

Fair winds,

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Good design. My point was you don't just drop-and-horse. They work better on many bottoms if you sort of "feel" them in. You know.

Yeah, I get you.

In fact, I do ALL my anchoring by feel. With a manual windlass (or better still, no windlass) you really are forced to get rather tactile with the equipment.

I'm quite convinced (convinced myself perhaps ) that I can tell a lot about what the anchor and rode are doing just by keeping a hand and/or foot on the rode.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by tarian

Some of the responses are scary on here , free fall , loads of chain on the bottom , it will sortiyself out.
I know I hear you all cry , we have never dragged we handled this amount of wind etc.
Bull.... this is not correct anchor procedure, you lower the anchor in any controlled descent you require,
You then either let the wind turn you and push you back letting out your scope under some control , then you power test your anchor.
I sail mainly the west of Scotland North , we do not dive on anchors , we get summer storms and strong winds tidal flows and currents,
We do not have the luxury of free falling an anchor and hope for the best, the anchor needs to set and set good or you will have no sleep.

“Power test”

What is the point? How about weather testing? I guarantee a good thunderstorm can set/test an anchor a lot better than any engine can.

Further, what if you are pulling it in the wrong direction when you do your engine set? Then what? It has to break out and reset again. What’s the difference between that situation and dumping it and letting it set on its own?

There’s pretty much no point in that power setting. Once the wind changes direction, it pops out and resets again on its own. It all takes care of itself. Even when you use the engine.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Chotu

“Power test”

What is the point? How about weather testing? I guarantee a good thunderstorm can set/test an anchor a lot better than any engine can.

Further, what if you are pulling it in the wrong direction when you do your engine set? Then what? It has to break out and reset again. What’s the difference between that situation and dumping it and letting it set on its own?

There’s pretty much no point in that power setting. Once the wind changes direction, it pops out and resets again on its own. It all takes care of itself. Even when you use the engine.

Chotu, This is the second time in this thread that you have advocated that technique and I'm having a hard time believing that you think this way. Maybe you are joking.

Because there are times when the anchor is NOT SET due to bottom conditions or whatever, but it is enough to hold you if the wind or waves are not severe. But if the conditions change at night and you're counting on the weather to "test" your anchor you might be up trying to re-anchor at midnight. It is far better to do a good set, under power, for the direction you expect the wind to come from, and hopefully you will be able to sleep more easily.

As for wind shifts after you've set the anchor, most good designs, if they are well buried, will rotate around and re-orient rather than hopping out of the bottom and dancing along until they happen to set again in the new direction.

I really advocate setting the anchor well, under power or by backing the sails, for the expected direction. Good technique can offset a light and less than modern anchor.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Further, what if you are pulling it in the wrong direction when you do your engine set? Then what? It has to break out and reset again. What’s the difference between that situation and dumping it and letting it set on its own?

There’s pretty much no point in that power setting. Once the wind changes direction, it pops out and resets again on its own. It all takes care of itself. Even when you use the engine.

No, this is not the case with properly set anchors. The whole point of having the anchor dug in is that it will not "pop out", but will crab around with the wind/current shift.

Of course, a sudden, very strong, 180º shift can still pop out any anchor. But this is far less common than a lower angle, or more gradual, shift.

If you are relying on an anchor's resetting capabilities, then you are leaving an awful lot to chance. Since it's easy to minimize this risk by actually taking the time to dig the anchor in, I choose to do so.


P.S. I see Wing beat me to it.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I've seen it more than once when snorkeling. It's actually easy to do in shallow waters with calm winds. Bet I could do it 2 out of 3 times. I've done it by accident when anchor testing in a hurry (no set... and I wonder why). Trade winds and 30' deep, it would take really bad luck to do it once!

Your dingy anchor doesn't count ;-)

I get it. If I was in the Bahamas in 10' of water on a dead still day, sure. Usually my mind goes to real challenging anchoring, where if you swam your anchor you could barely see it. Again though, I doubt many who freefalls the anchor and chain doesn't have some reverse movement to their boat.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Chotu, This is the second time in this thread that you have advocated that technique and I'm having a hard time believing that you think this way. Maybe you are joking.

Because there are times when the anchor is NOT SET due to bottom conditions or whatever, but it is enough to hold you if the wind or waves are not severe. But if the conditions change at night and you're counting on the weather to "test" your anchor you might be up trying to re-anchor at midnight. It is far better to do a good set, under power, for the direction you expect the wind to come from, and hopefully you will be able to sleep more easily.

As for wind shifts after you've set the anchor, most good designs, if they are well buried, will rotate around and re-orient rather than hopping out of the bottom and dancing along until they happen to set again in the new direction.

I really advocate setting the anchor well, under power or by backing the sails, for the expected direction. Good technique can offset a light and less than modern anchor.

Well, either way on the rotation vs resetting. Maybe the modern anchor doesn’t break out and reset like an old CQR. Fair point.

I’m a conservative 6000 to 0 so far. 6000+ times it’s worked, 0 times it’s failed.

You can literally leave a modern anchor on its side, completely unset and it digs right in the second your boat tries to move against it.

Look at this. This is what happens when you leave an anchor just sitting on the bottom, on its side, completely unset.

https://youtu.be/bhjdlKwTdv8?t=5m3s

There is literally no reason whatsoever to use an engine to anchor a boat. Nature sets it for you.

Either through the initial momentum of the boat tugging on it when you first set it, or in glass calm conditions, the pull on the anchor later when it’s actually needed. (The chain holds the boat all by itself up to a point).

The (modern) plow anchor always provides an equal and opposite reaction to the wind and current. Always. Without fail. Ever. I’m 6000+ to 0. Every single time.

Additionally, do you see how silly it is to set an anchor in any given direction when the boat is going to pivot through 360 degrees anyway? It’s completely illogical. The natural forces will be in a different direction later and your set is completely fruitless. The (Modern plow) anchor takes care of itself no matter what you do.

Make sure you open the video.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

No, this is not the case with properly set anchors. The whole point of having the anchor dug in is that it will not "pop out", but will crab around with the wind/current shift.

Of course, a sudden, very strong, 180º shift can still pop out any anchor. But this is far less common than a lower angle, or more gradual, shift.

If you are relying on an anchor's resetting capabilities, then you are leaving an awful lot to chance. Since it's easy to minimize this risk by actually taking the time to dig the anchor in, I choose to do so.


P.S. I see Wing beat me to it.

And I choose not to. Because of my experience 30 years ago with an old CQR. It taught me that using an engine to set one of those was useless.

I can’t tell you why that didn’t work. I wish I could. But it only dug in properly when the natural forces pulled it slowly into the ground. Most other times it would not reliably set via engine. It would just drag along the seabed when I pulled it via the engine.

So, I started just dumping it over and it worked. Every time. For years.

Now it works even better with a Manson Supreme. I’ve yet to use my Rocna, but judging by the video, it’ll behave as well as the Manson Supreme.

To anyone who doubts this technique, I say try it. On a day where you can afford to be scared and reset an anchor, dump it overboard and don’t do anything at all to make sure it’s set. Then set your anchor drag alarm. Let me know what happens. Hint: it will dig right in when the natural forces start pulling on it. Just like this:

https://youtu.be/bhjdlKwTdv8?t=5m3s

Obviously this is not the technique for a danforth or fortress type anchor, but for a modern plow? Never fails. Ever.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Woodland Hills

I am curious how many drop their anchors by freefalling using the brake or lower them using the motor? I realize this mostly applies to bigger boats with heavier anchors, but I was curious.

Always a controlled descent using the 'down' button on the windlass control from the cockpit.
Seeing the depth from the depth display, then adding three metres to it, I know from the counter, when the anchor is on the bottom. When nearly there, gently reversing while still letting out the anchor chain, the anchor is laid without any issues. Once the amount you want is out, let settle, then test/dig-in by reversing on it.

[Jim Cate]

Chotu it appears that your mind is made up, so this is likely a useless quest...

I can report that over the 35 years of full time cruising we've only had a very few anchor failings, failing in anger that is. But there have been a handful of times when we've dropped using our usual approach and then made our usual gradual application of power in reverse... and while it held initially, when we got nearer to full power we began to move steadily backwards. When the anchor was raised for inspection, it was in several cases fouled with something. These items have included a pair of board shorts, a beach towel and various more natural debris, especially large kelp leaves. Had we employed your technique and the wind gotten up, off we would have gone... and lots of these adventures were long before the wonderful anchor alarms that we employ today.

There have also been quite a few more instances when the anchor (and these have included in order an ABI plow, a Bruce, a good Bruce knockoff and a Manson Supreme) have simply failed to hold with full thrust, usually due to low shear strength mud or shallow sand over coral. Again, had we not set the anchor under power a bad outcome was quite possible.

You quote a 100% success rate for your technique in over 6000 attempts. That's impressive for sure, but the lack of ANY failures to set is kinda hard to believe when I relate it to my even greater number of attempts which, as set out above, have had some glitches. Perhaps there were some events that have slipped your mind... absolute perfection in any activity is kinda rare IME.

You, of course, should continue to utilize whatever technique you prefer, but I am not happy to see such advice being given to newbies who may not be as lucky as you have been... and your proposed experiment with an N of one could lead them to a false sense of security.

Jim

[Greg K]

Nothing sweeter than the sound of anchor chain free falling. Apply the brake once the hook hits bottom, then let out little by little as the bow veers off. Given time, the anchor will usually set itself if there is any wind at all. Sailors have anchored in this manner for hundreds of years before the invention of electricity and engines. It still works fine.


Still, not a bad idea to test it in reverse after some time just to make sure, especially if there is little wind.

[Chotu]

Nothing has slipped my mind, Jim. I dump the anchor, I go to bed, I’m still there the next day. For closing in on 30 years now, more nights spent sleeping at anchor than on land.

Your board shorts incident is a strange one. The tip of my anchor can rip into material like that, or just drag it underground. I don’t doubt your experience, but it’s a strange experience.

If your fouling on fabric was before anchor alarms, it was before modern anchors too. So I can see that being an issue. A Manson or Rocna Sharp tip would cut through a towel.

I mean it’s not luck. Just look at the videos I posted. By virtue of how an anchor works, setting it naturally works.

Just as Greg K says above, we have been anchoring the way I do for thousands of years. There were no engines. It worked then. It works even better now.

I should also say that my 6000 number is kind of arbitrary. It’s 30 years of the technique working where I have lived and slept at anchor more than on land. It’s probably not 6000 anchoring attempts. Because I would stay there at anchor for quite some time. I came to that number by just dividing 30 years in half, and then saying the number of nights included in 15 years. That’s nights sleeping at anchor and I have probably exceeded that. By quite a margin. But those are not individual anchoring attempts because you don’t reanchor every night.

Any n00bs out there, Please go ahead and rev that engine in reverse. I’m not trying to change anyone’s approach. I’m just presenting an alternate way of doing things that works exceedingly well for me. But I also have very good ground tackle. If you are just dropping some sort of lunch hook on the end of some three strand rope, you probably need to back that thing in hard, I don’t know. I use an 80lbs Manson Supreme, all chain rode and bridle/snubbers. I just got an 88lb Rocna for my high windage catamaran.

[rslifkin]

In my mind, the power set isn't so much to actually set the anchor, it's more to confirm that it can set well and hold a decent bit of pull in the current bottom. Which means that I'm then fairly confident that it will set and hold on a reset. Basically, it's a double check that I didn't drop the anchor into a pot of soup or a pile of rocks that I didn't know about where it may seem to set at first, but not hold more than a gentle pull.

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

In my mind, the power set isn't so much to actually set the anchor, it's more to confirm that it can set well and hold a decent bit of pull in the current bottom. Which means that I'm then fairly confident that it will set and hold on a reset. Basically, it's a double check that I didn't drop the anchor into a pot of soup or a pile of rocks that I didn't know about where it may seem to set at first, but not hold more than a gentle pull.

Yes, " a double check" exactly. The most common mistake I have seen newbies make, is that they reverse too quickly and too aggressively before the anchor has a chance to set itself. Would have much better results if they'd just waited to let it set naturally before yanking under power in reverse.