Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

[LakeSuperior]

A couple more thoughts...in my analysis I discarded the sea anchor concept because of the shock loading taking the rode to the breaking point, potential for rudder damage, steering gear damage, and chaffing. I couldn't imagine going up the to bow and adding or adjusting the rode with one hand during heavy conditions.

[ReMetau]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Side note -- boy is the weather unstable here. I just looked up to see dark clouds moving in from the west. That's not what they forecast ...

It sure is! Those isolated localized thunderstorms that they forecast everyday in the summer can be quite atrocious. Good thing you got those drogues to get you through the bay!

[Jimbo485]

Originally Posted by ReMetau

It sure is! Those isolated localized thunderstorms that they forecast everyday in the summer can be quite atrocious. Good thing you got those drogues to get you through the bay!

ROTFLMAO!!

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by conachair

Actually, i work with the stuff now and again, tech12 on winches, and it is really quite incredible. But knowing all that logically won't stop being huddled down below worrying about it. Might be no difference in the real world but if it makes you feel safer then chain it is.

I see a difference between a winch and the chance that whatever is used for will saw back and forth on something. I deliberately have cut small diameter Spectra by doing that across a not particularly sharp edge. There's all kinds of things I would use Spectra/Dyneema for, particularly when you don't want stretch. It holds knots incredibly well. Put a bowline under tension in Spectra and at least with the small diameter, you won't be able to take it out. That's both a strength and a weakness.

[Matt Johnson]

What? Spectra is about a slippery as it comes and is known to not hold knots. Don't trust this stuff with knots.... It needs to be spliced.

[rebel heart]

Seems like this "boats moving too fast" thing is mainly a light displacement issue, and I'm including multi-hulls in that categorization.

My boat has a rather short mast (actual cutter rig), and with the main triple reefed and the staysail double reefed, I have a pretty tiny amount of sail up. Heaves-to rather easily with a almost-full keel.

I can sail right up until the point that we're either too tired or getting too beat up, then backwind the staysail, bump the rudder, and boom: we stop dead in our tracks drifting slightly leaving a huge slick to windward.

I'm wondering how many people are using drogues and sea anchors because their boats don't respond that way. I've only been in this boat in the mid 40 knots (and would love to keep it that way). Never felt like the boat was moving too fast.

Running off has never been a thing for me to do unless we really want to make progress in that direction. More of a wave thing than a wind thing. I'll take 100 knot winds as long as the water is flat over 10 knots with 5' short interval chop waves. Not that either of those conditions either exist like that, but the waves are always my issue. Boat speed and wind is an easy second on the priority list.

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by rebel heart

Boat speed and wind is an easy second on the priority list.

Excessive boat speed is caused by wave height and shape in extreme weather. One uses a drogue device to control boat speed when, for example the boat wants to surf down the wave face with bare poles. The drogue also aligns the boat with the wave train velocity as mentioned in a previous comment so that you don't get hit with a breaking wave from the side.

[rebel heart]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

Excessive boat speed is caused by wave height and shape in extreme weather. One uses a drogue device to control boat speed when, for example the boat wants to surf down the wave face with bare poles. The drogue also aligns the boat with the wave train velocity as mentioned in a previous comment so that you don't get hit with a breaking wave from the side.

Yeah but why wouldn't you just heave-to long before you were running in seas like that? Unless you had a dying crew member onboard with a hospital downwind it just doesn't seem worth it. Just stop the boat.

[LakeSuperior]

I understand (and it makes sense) after the seas attain an extreme state the hove-to condition is no longer tenable. The boat will not stay in a stable state but will be at the mercy of the sea where it will jibe or be knocked down or rolled by breaking waves. It is in the extreme survival conditions that a drogue is deployed.

I would guess at this point surviving the storm is more important that the direction the boat is moving.

[rebel heart]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

I understand (and it makes sense) after the seas attain an extreme state the hove-to condition is no longer tenable. The boat will not stay in a stable state but will be at the mercy of the sea where it will jibe or be knocked down or rolled by breaking waves. It is in the extreme survival conditions that a drogue is deployed.

I would guess at this point surviving the storm is more important that the direction the boat is moving.

Depends on the boat I suppose. From what I remember in Coles' Heavy Weather Sailing and the stuff from the Pardeys, they're huge advocates of heaving-to in the worst conditions possible, the Pardeys doing the sorta-sea-anchor thing just to maintain the hove-to position and create a bigger karman vortex street / slick to windward.

That's sort of where I'm going with the lighter displacement vessels; they fall off quicker, their hull shapes allow them to push through the water laterally much faster, and they don't create as much disturbance as they do so.

Whatever is clever, but running is just a non-starter for me. Unless you have a dozen well qualified helmsmen onboard it's just mind-racking to hand steer in conditions like that. Way too easy to screw up and the fatigue sets in the second you're at the wheel.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by rebel heart

Seems like this "boats moving too fast" thing is mainly a light displacement issue, and I'm including multi-hulls in that categorization.

My boat has a rather short mast (actual cutter rig), and with the main triple reefed and the staysail double reefed, I have a pretty tiny amount of sail up. Heaves-to rather easily with a almost-full keel.

I can sail right up until the point that we're either too tired or getting too beat up, then backwind the staysail, bump the rudder, and boom: we stop dead in our tracks drifting slightly leaving a huge slick to windward.

I'm wondering how many people are using drogues and sea anchors because their boats don't respond that way. I've only been in this boat in the mid 40 knots (and would love to keep it that way). Never felt like the boat was moving too fast.

Running off has never been a thing for me to do unless we really want to make progress in that direction. More of a wave thing than a wind thing. I'll take 100 knot winds as long as the water is flat over 10 knots with 5' short interval chop waves. Not that either of those conditions either exist like that, but the waves are always my issue. Boat speed and wind is an easy second on the priority list.

My boat does not heave to well. Even in a very moderate wind (say, 12 k) it moves over ground at about 2 1/2. You're right. By the time you're considering these options, it's about the water.

I tried very hard to make heaving-to work for me when I was having major engine problems because I was so tired of pulling the anchor up. No dice. In crowded, shallow, Boca Ciega Bay, the boat would have me in a bad place, one way or another, in no time.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by rebel heart

Yeah but why wouldn't you just heave-to long before you were running in seas like that? Unless you had a dying crew member onboard with a hospital downwind it just doesn't seem worth it. Just stop the boat.

I agree with you, but there is a "sailor mentality" that says you just don't stop sailing unless you absolutely have to.

I went out sailing with a fellow who had had a heart attack six weeks earlier. I had just started sailing and had only sailed small boats under supervision. He looked at me and said "If I collapsed, could you sail us back to the club?" I said, "Absolutely not."

He looked very worried! I said "What I can do is put the boat in a slow circle and call for help." It was little day sail.

Turns out when he got sick the first time the fellow on the boat with him spent 90 minutes sailing the boat back to its home before calling for help...

sometimes you just gotta use some common sense!

I would heave to (if my boat would cooperate) earlier rather than later. I'll be stopped longer but it's what would be right for me. "YMMV" and all that.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by rebel heart

Depends on the boat I suppose. From what I remember in Coles' Heavy Weather Sailing and the stuff from the Pardeys, they're huge advocates of heaving-to in the worst conditions possible, the Pardeys doing the sorta-sea-anchor thing just to maintain the hove-to position and create a bigger karman vortex street / slick to windward.

That's sort of where I'm going with the lighter displacement vessels; they fall off quicker, their hull shapes allow them to push through the water laterally much faster, and they don't create as much disturbance as they do so.

Whatever is clever, but running is just a non-starter for me. Unless you have a dozen well qualified helmsmen onboard it's just mind-racking to hand steer in conditions like that. Way too easy to screw up and the fatigue sets in the second you're at the wheel.

Be careful. When I said that I got shouted down.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

"
I think the point is that there is no reason for coastal sailors to be caught in dangerous sea states. .

I had an instance thirteen years ago when I was caught in a dangerous sea state while coastal cruising despite being aware of the forecast.

We were heading south down the California coast, and a gale was forecast. We ducked into Stillwater Cove (Pebble Beach) to ride out the storm since the forecast winds were supposed to be out of the northwest. Set the storm anchor. But in the middle of the night, the wind turned southerly, and huge breakers were suddenly coming through the cove. Although my anchor held the first few times we took a breaking wave over the bow, I didn't want to press my luck doing this for the next 24 hours. Knowing we were going out into a full gale, we left the anchorage around 0200, intent on running north to Monterey. But once we got a mile offshore, the winds were blowing from the northwest, with seas running 14 feet, so we turned south and ran with just a storm jib. Over the course of the next 24 hours, we averaged over 9 knots on a 41' boat.

We hoped to take shelter in Morro Bay, but the following evening we heard a USCG Pan Pan announcing that the harbor was closed because the bar was breaking. We kept going, sadly, and ended up finally taking refuge in Port of San Louis.

Back then I didn't carry a drogue, and I found myself wishing I had one. We would often accelerate to 12 knots coming down the faces of waves, sometimes a bit more. The boat never broached, but we felt a constant need to hand-steer in case one of the swells caught us funny. It was exhausting, and we needed to change the helmsman every thirty minutes. With only three of us aboard, all watches were cancelled.

A drogue would have allowed us to set the autopilot and relax a bit. Ever since that experience I've carried a drogue. A gale rider. I'm happy to report that I've never had to use it other than to practice deploying it.

I keep it stowed next to the spare rudder. Those are two pieces of gear I hope never to have to use, but two items that give me enormous peace of mind just knowing they're there.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Bash

I had an instance thirteen years ago when I was caught in a dangerous sea state while coastal cruising despite being aware of the forecast.

We were heading south down the California coast, and a gale was forecast. We ducked into Stillwater Cove (Pebble Beach) to ride out the storm since the forecast winds were supposed to be out of the northwest. Set the storm anchor. But in the middle of the night, the wind turned southerly, and huge breakers were suddenly coming through the cove. Although my anchor held the first few times we took a breaking wave over the bow, I didn't want to press my luck doing this for the next 24 hours. Knowing we were going out into a full gale, we left the anchorage around 0200, intent on running north to Monterey. But once we got a mile offshore, the winds were blowing from the northwest, with seas running 14 feet, so we turned south and ran with just a storm jib. Over the course of the next 24 hours, we averaged over 9 knots on a 41' boat.

We hoped to take shelter in Morro Bay, but the following evening we heard a USCG Pan Pan announcing that the harbor was closed because the bar was breaking. We kept going, sadly, and ended up finally taking refuge in Port of San Louis.

Back then I didn't carry a drogue, and I found myself wishing I had one. We would often accelerate to 12 knots coming down the faces of waves, sometimes a bit more. The boat never broached, but we felt a constant need to hand-steer in case one of the swells caught us funny. It was exhausting, and we needed to change the helmsman every thirty minutes. With only three of us aboard, all watches were cancelled.

A drogue would have allowed us to set the autopilot and relax a bit. Ever since that experience I've carried a drogue. A gale rider. I'm happy to report that I've never had to use it other than to practice deploying it.

I keep it stowed next to the spare rudder. Those are two pieces of gear I hope never to have to use, but two items that give me enormous peace of mind just knowing they're there.

I would like to know two things. First, tell me about this "spare rudder." I have a painful rudder history! (One of the things I'll be practicing after the new one is in is using one or more drogues to steer ...)

Second, tell me how you practiced deploying the sea anchor. Please.