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Old 09-10-2020, 08:53   #76
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
These threads never get much traction here...the thing to do is walk the docks...go to marina's...talk to boat owners on the water....charter a few boats, read some books, watch any of countless Youtube video's, etc....here it's just talk....every poster will have his or her opinion, none of which is likely to benefit or sway your thinking...as it seems you pretty much have your own game plan in mind...

Time on the water is your best teacher...and it will determine what you "might" actually do....
I think MicHughV hit the nail, first time.

I'm a cruiser, but on a trawler. Didn't want to do bow crawls on old knees at always the wrong time, plus my mate, 10yrs my junior, said she wouldn't get on a boat that leans over to go. Deal done, trawler lifestyle.

Currently on the Loop, a circumnavigation of sorts and maybe a good place to start. We've taken 5yrs to do half, going home for the winter and exploring the rest of the time. Check here (www.greatloop.org) for more info.

BTW, time on the water is the best teacher, as long as you know which is the bow of the boat and basic navigation.

Any questions I can answer, give me a shout.

Good luck.
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Old 09-10-2020, 08:55   #77
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

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Originally Posted by DMCantor View Post
I am also skeptical about the intermediate boat. For the cost of the boat, insurance, slip fees, etc., you can do a whole lot of chartering. That gives you the chance to experience a lot of different boats, and learn what matters to you. If you go with smaller charter companies and stay away from the sailing meccas, chartering is pretty affordable.


Selling the intermediate boat is guaranteed to be a pain. Boat transactions always are.
--------------

Upvote this. Get one boat and one boat only. Maybe wait 3 years to get the boat. A 2-year plan is sufficient, even if you need to spend the first 6 months of your escapade living on and learning everything about your new boat- 6 months fulltime without distractions is worth more than 5 years of partial attention.
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Old 09-10-2020, 08:57   #78
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

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Originally Posted by Yihang View Post
hahahaha. There was this guy on my ASA who started sailing, flying and riding a motor bike the same year. Girls watch out。

Sailing around the world is probably the last difficult achievement in your life . 14 yo girls do it.
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Have you done it?
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Old 09-10-2020, 09:08   #79
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

Wow. A pilot who is thinking about retirement to a boat.

Been there on a small scale. Flying was a hobby, could never get enough hours to pay the bills. Sailing was always a part of life. When considering leaving the small boat world, I looked at sail club, chartering, classes (again), or buying a boat and just doing it. I chose the last option.

Sold my little boat on it's trailer, sure I had made investments into sails and maintenance, but on a trailer you can drive 8 hours and be in big water somewhere. You learn so much in a smaller boat that is much like a small plane.

Training in a trainer. Will it impress the ladies...

A 38ft Cat is impressive, like a fancy condo only on the water. I chartered a few and they were not the same as sailing a mono hull on open waters. Just like flying a bus is not the same as an aerobatic plane.

Each has its value and your choice depends on what you hope to accomplish.

I decided a long time ago that paying for lessons to do what you already know (navigation, basic handling etc) is not the way I want to spend money. Give me a smallish boat 27-32 feet and let me loose. If the boat is of moderate cost, I'll have a reasonable base of comfort. If I get in trouble I won't have broken the bank.

They say every boat owner is going to run aground. It is a matter of when. Running aground is like trying to land with the wheels up. It happens. Doing it in a big boat is not as good as learning about it in a small boat. Once it happens you become more aware and establish - I'll never do that again - memories.

Good luck
You sound like you'll make it ok.
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Old 09-10-2020, 14:35   #80
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

My two bits:

1. As with some others, I think the "intermediate boat" idea is fine (indeed, good). My suggestion/caveat is that it be a smaller boat (say 29-35'), inexpensive enough ($10-$20k) that you won't lose much on resale (you always lose on resale, sometimes a lot), and located somewhere closer (weekend drive) so that you'll use it, regularly. And don't try to improve it too much. Dollars in won't come back (though the experience fixing/maintaining and upgrading is priceless).

There's a lot to learn and experience owning and sailing your own boat, most of which you will not get chartering.

2. as a reality check: After you retire, sell everything, move onto your "forever boat" (does such a boat exist?) and sail to the tropics, you might find (after 1,2,3 or more years) that this life (the boat, the heat, the countries, etc) is not what you want anymore. It happens all the time to cruisers. Doesn't mean don't do it, but keep the possibility in mind.
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Old 09-10-2020, 16:43   #81
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Arrow Plans are great, until things not in the plan get in the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flightlead404 View Post
I can't go now. I have an elderly parent to take care of for probably another couple years.

You insurance #'s seem more in line. I'll shop some more. tks.
Improvise, adapt, and overcome?
Words to live by.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

I had a plan to sail from SoCAL through the Panama Canal & into the Caribbean with Dad, but he died in 2010, just as we began shopping for sailing lessons. So I made a different plan, only to soon realize that Mom had dementia. Plan for sailboat was then put on permanent hold, but I began sailing on other people's boats. I crewed everything from racers to cruisers in the ensuing years and I became a competent sailor... so the reworked plan remained alive & well.

My wife & I cared for Mom for 4 years, then my father-in-law in Mexico died. The Mrs left to care for her own mom there, while I had no recourse but to put Mom in a home in 2014...costing ~$118K that 1st year, with costs rising almost monthly. Forget a sailboat, I was headed to $0 balance savings in ~10 years. I saw no end to the costs rising, so new plan...in 2015 I took Mom out of the home, quit my job, and took her to S Mexico to be near the Mrs & mom-in-law. We have a huge condo on the beach, 2 full time & 2 part time caregivers and total costs went down to $36K/yr. Mom thinks she's in Hawaii & we don't argue. So, the new plan: Care for Mom until she passes, then revisit sailboat dream.

Are you still with me?

Nov 2018 I crashed my bicycle yielding 9 hours surgery, 8 titanium plates & 2 titanium screws to reassemble broken cranium frontal, sphenoid, & ethmoid bones, TBI, permanent anosmia, left eye off-axis ~2°, lazy right eyelid, many broken teeth [3 months of dental work], and ~3 months of vertigo/light & sound sensitivity.

New plan...learn to eat, see, and walk again, then regroup. Don't worry, I'm still good-looking.

By Summer 2019 I was convalesced for the most-part and "casually browsing" boats for sale with no intention to buy...and out of the blue, I said "Fv<# it" and bought one.
No plan whatsoever.
It is said that Traumatic Brain Injury can result in impulsiveness, and in my case it was/is true.

New plan: head south Winter 2020, do the journey in chunks, leaving the boat in marinas along the way in order to visit Mom regularly. Then the pandemic came along...pushed any thoughts of departure back a full year.
So, back to planning.

Plans are great, until things not in the plan get in the way.

Good luck to the OP with your plan!!!

PS,
Regrets? Having put Mom in that home in the 1st place and crashing on my bike. Other than those...none.
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Old 09-10-2020, 18:44   #82
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

@surf_km55:

Wow, what a story! a real "man proposes: God laughs" kind of tale. Great idea on caretaking the parent somewhere you're happy to be!

Good luck to you, sir (it never hurts, and sometimes helps a great deal)!

Ann
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Old 10-10-2020, 14:37   #83
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

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Hi

"Long time reader, first time caller" and unsure to which forum this thread should be posted. So apologies if its in the wrong place.

So, like many, I've had a decades long dream of retiring and doing some liveaboard cruising. No grandiose ideas of a circumnavigation, my plan was 2-5 years swanning around the Carib (although my gf 29 years my junior just asked about Atlantic crossings so who knows).

I have "some" sailing experience. Dingy as a kid, crewed here and there on "round the beer cans" racing Catalina 29, have ASA 101, 103, 104, 106, 114 and a few bareboat charters in FL and Keys. Turning 55 in the spring, and planning on pushing away from the docks at the start of cruising season when I'm 60. Other slightly relevant experience is 30+ years of aircraft ownership, instrument commercial pilot (I flew airshows, low level formation aerobatics, not airliners), thousands of no-accident hours, and I'm a Turbo Porsche modification mad-scientist (think 1.21 gigawatts is enough).

How do I prepare?

We (gf and I) will be doing (and in my case re-doing) the ASA training in the next 6 months. The plan for the cruising vessel (no, not a '69 Buick Skylark) is a Catamaran in the high 30s to low 40's size (Lagoon 380S owners look nice) but for giggles I just tried to get insurance quotes and they ranged from $10k/year to "sorry no coverage available" so I assume some "big boat" ownership experience is needed.

Here's the plan then. Along with the training, do a couple of bareboat weeks or fortnights in the next 1-2 years then pick up a "biggish" monohull. Something in the 35-37' range and stick it on a mooring or slip in FL somewhere I can get to in around 2 hrs flight time from ATL. I'm thinking something that's "ready to go-ish", ie doesn't need immediate work or upgrades, and something that I can sell readily in 3-4 years to buy the final vessel. Then spend weekends and some weeks on the boat building time. Do the maintenance, but hopefully not put too much into it, sell it for a smallish depreciation and buy the appropriate catamaran 6-12 months before departure and spend that time upgrading as necessary as well as learning to sail her.

FWIW I'm a very hands on guy, I've maintained my own aircraft for 30 years including engine tear downs, done several full up panel/electronics re-fits, and have become rather an expert on maintaining/modifying mid-80's Porsche 911's engines and fuel systems, and an electronics/microcomputer hobbiest and use those skills to modify the ancient Porsches. So, while I don't have direct boat maintenance experience I'm not afraid to dig in. I'll pull a motor without fear, do electronics/nav systems installations etc, just can't weld.

So, at a high level, is my plan "on course"? What advise would you give me? And for those sailing in FL, east coast or west coast?

FWIW while I'm not Bill Gates, this is fully budgeted and I'm a cash buyer so no boat loans needed, not a relevant discussion (slip fees on the other hand...)
Its good to have a plan, more importantly to recognize the critical steps to a successful plan. Good first step is to get the necessary sailing and navigation skills. The next is to get out sailing and find out if you and your significant other both enjoy sailing and are compatible on the boat. The later takes time to figure out, the real test is when the **** hits the fan not when you are out in ideal conditions.

Your background and previous experience will definitely be beneficial in transitioning to boat ownership - I think the only thing more expensive than boat ownership is airplane ownership. The reality of boat ownership is you have to be prepared to do a lot of the work yourself especially if you are sailing in more remote areas.

I think your time lines are very aggressive. I think chartering a boat is a good way of getting experience sailing and operating the equipment however it won't provide much experience on maintenance of that equipment. Owing a boat will definitely get you that experience however the process of purchasing a boat is very time consuming, also finding a used boat that doesn't need any upgrading or maintenance is rare. I'm not sure this step makes sense if you only plan to own the boat 3 years, also you mentioned you are a 2 hour flight away from your boat - remote boat ownership introduces more challenges. It is far easier to be able to tinker on your boat when it is close by. In your scenario I think you would spend far more time that you think working on your boat versus actually sailing your boat.

I would put some though into skipping the step of purchasing an interim boat to gain experience and look at other alternatives such as shared ownership, sailing clubs etc.

Our first sailing boat purchase was a 42' mono hull, prior to that most of our sailing experience was on a 27' mono hull. We were a member of a boat club which did their own boat maintenance. While we did gain some maintenance experience on the smaller boat, the systems on the bigger boat we purchased were different so tough to say how much our previous maintenance experience benefitted us. What I think was more of a benefit was the sailing experience we gained previous to our purchase, not just the setting of the sails, the docking, anchoring, stern tying, planning trips, navigating, avoiding hazards, determining right of way, making weather based decisions, tides , etc. The actual sailing is the easy part. The transition from 27' to 42' was not easy however there are ways to mitigate that transition for example hiring someone with experience to take you out and get you familiar with handling a larger boat.

Again with your background along with some additional training and experience I'm sure you could skip the step of purchasing and interim boat, get the experience that you need for insurance purposes and, just purchase the boat you want for long term cruising.
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Old 11-10-2020, 16:28   #84
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

STOP PLANNING, START SAILING.

I live in New Zealand. When sailing in the South Pacific Islands I have met many sailors from Europe and America who, with no more experience than you, got on a yacht and sailed to Tonga, Fiji, NZ, Australia. They took their time, usually 2 or 3 years and learnt as they went. By the time I met them they were very competent.

If you want plans, make one for next week then see what happens after that.
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Old 11-10-2020, 16:49   #85
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

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Originally Posted by john manning View Post
STOP PLANNING, START SAILING.



I live in New Zealand. When sailing in the South Pacific Islands I have met many sailors from Europe and America who, with no more experience than you, got on a yacht and sailed to Tonga, Fiji, NZ, Australia. They took their time, usually 2 or 3 years and learnt as they went. By the time I met them they were very competent.



If you want plans, make one for next week then see what happens after that.

Not necessarily very competent, remember the cat that ran on the reef at Huahine for example? I propose that the vast majority of ‘just do it’ and self-taught sailors are not very competent at all. Just lucky.

Same as in the work world: just because someone has done a job for 10 years doesn’t mean they have 10 years of experience. Instead, they have most likely have 1 year of experience, ten times.

But the ideas of apprenticeship and building knowledge and experience in a structured way have disappeared, partly in response to things like YouTube. This isn’t just an issue in sailing; I’ve heard the same complaints in rock climbing, mountaineering, extreme skiing, canyoning and river rafting.

One sees a lot of technically proficient participants, but with little or no knowledge of all the associated fundamentals - in the sailing/cruising context that would be seamanship.
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Old 11-10-2020, 20:36   #86
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

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Not necessarily very competent, remember the cat that ran on the reef at Huahine for example? I propose that the vast majority of ‘just do it’ and self-taught sailors are not very competent at all. Just lucky.

Same as in the work world: just because someone has done a job for 10 years doesn’t mean they have 10 years of experience. Instead, they have most likely have 1 year of experience, ten times.

But the ideas of apprenticeship and building knowledge and experience in a structured way have disappeared, partly in response to things like YouTube. This isn’t just an issue in sailing; I’ve heard the same complaints in rock climbing, mountaineering, extreme skiing, canyoning and river rafting.

One sees a lot of technically proficient participants, but with little or no knowledge of all the associated fundamentals - in the sailing/cruising context that would be seamanship.

I agree with everything you said but still would advise STOP PLANNING, start sailing.
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Old 20-10-2020, 01:17   #87
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

Complicated
Time deferred dreams usually dont work out too well, lots of things will happen over the next 5 years, at the moment you are looking after your parents so how can you have a 5 year plan plan?
Sailing on other peoples yachts isn't the same as owning one.
The responsibility lies with the owner, brake downs, repairs and so on and not with the crew.
You said of thinking buying a 'cheap' boat now..why not, you will learn a lot, maintenance, sailing and so on. You might even keep it and go somwhere.
If you don't like it you can always sell it.
Best of luck
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Old 20-10-2020, 04:08   #88
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

No comment in the overall worthiness of the plan. But do want to comment in support of interim boat concept.

I'm a trawler guy who is active on a sister forum for trawlers. I'm reminded of a recent thread where a new owner had returned to the forum. 6 months ago he asked a ton of questions to find his perfect boat. Having found and purchased his perfect boat, he finds he is in over his head. Too big, too much work.

Second data point. A good friend of mine transitioned from sail to power. He bought a nearly new sumptuous 52 foot trawler cat with grand plans. He doesn't care for the ride and the boat is too big for him to comfortably single hand. His girlfriend (coincidentally also much younger) is too green to reliably assist. And by "green" I mean literally and figuratively as she suffers horribly from sea sickness.

My point is twofold. First, if you think an interim boat is a sunk cost and wasted expense, try the calculation of getting the wrong final-boat. Second, it's a crap shot that you actually know what your last boat should be without spending time figuring out what cruising really means to you.

Best success to the OP whatever you decide to do. Sounds like you've worked hard and are transitioning into a more adventurous stage of life. Regardless of the path you follow, I wish you well.

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Old 20-10-2020, 09:17   #89
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Re: Plans are great, until things not in the plan get in the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by surf_km55 View Post
Improvise, adapt, and overcome?
Words to live by.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

I had a plan to sail from SoCAL through the Panama Canal & into the Caribbean with Dad, but he died in 2010, just as we began shopping for sailing lessons. So I made a different plan, only to soon realize that Mom had dementia. Plan for sailboat was then put on permanent hold, but I began sailing on other people's boats. I crewed everything from racers to cruisers in the ensuing years and I became a competent sailor... so the reworked plan remained alive & well.

My wife & I cared for Mom for 4 years, then my father-in-law in Mexico died. The Mrs left to care for her own mom there, while I had no recourse but to put Mom in a home in 2014...costing ~$118K that 1st year, with costs rising almost monthly. Forget a sailboat, I was headed to $0 balance savings in ~10 years. I saw no end to the costs rising, so new plan...in 2015 I took Mom out of the home, quit my job, and took her to S Mexico to be near the Mrs & mom-in-law. We have a huge condo on the beach, 2 full time & 2 part time caregivers and total costs went down to $36K/yr. Mom thinks she's in Hawaii & we don't argue. So, the new plan: Care for Mom until she passes, then revisit sailboat dream.

Are you still with me?

Nov 2018 I crashed my bicycle yielding 9 hours surgery, 8 titanium plates & 2 titanium screws to reassemble broken cranium frontal, sphenoid, & ethmoid bones, TBI, permanent anosmia, left eye off-axis ~2°, lazy right eyelid, many broken teeth [3 months of dental work], and ~3 months of vertigo/light & sound sensitivity.

New plan...learn to eat, see, and walk again, then regroup. Don't worry, I'm still good-looking.

By Summer 2019 I was convalesced for the most-part and "casually browsing" boats for sale with no intention to buy...and out of the blue, I said "Fv<# it" and bought one.
No plan whatsoever.
It is said that Traumatic Brain Injury can result in impulsiveness, and in my case it was/is true.

New plan: head south Winter 2020, do the journey in chunks, leaving the boat in marinas along the way in order to visit Mom regularly. Then the pandemic came along...pushed any thoughts of departure back a full year.
So, back to planning.

Plans are great, until things not in the plan get in the way.

Good luck to the OP with your plan!!!

PS,
Regrets? Having put Mom in that home in the 1st place and crashing on my bike. Other than those...none.
Thanks. I'm lucky in the sense that Dad put enough by to at least cover Mum's care (although untangling the mess was challenging when he passed).

I get the point though, life is constantly throwing spanners into the works. But, I need a plan even if it gets modified constantly.

I think I've been talked out of the idea of the interim boat, will see what I can find in terms of OPBs and sailing clubs...local or otherwise.

We're off to Key West in a few weeks for ASA 101, 103, 104 for her and ride-along/refresh for me.
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Old 20-10-2020, 09:24   #90
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

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They say every boat owner is going to run aground. It is a matter of when. Running aground is like trying to land with the wheels up. It happens. Doing it in a big boat is not as good as learning about it in a small boat. Once it happens you become more aware and establish - I'll never do that again - memories.

Good luck
You sound like you'll make it ok.
They also say that every tail-dragger pilot will ground loop sooner or later. Hasn't happened to me yet, and I've landed twice in crosswinds with a brake failure, landed on mountain strips with crosswinds gusting 29-41kts, and am regularly out flying with most C182 and tricycle Piper guys are at home. Why? Because I go out on rough days and look for the runway with the strongest cross wind to practice on. I think the same approach on sailing, ie deliberately challenging myself, is a good approach to building skill and confidence.

I've already run aground anyway lol ticked that box. Motoring down the ICW around Haulover in a Bavaria 35 with 6' of draft. $350 to learn that lesson
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