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Old 03-10-2020, 09:21   #16
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

well I stopped reading after planes became the subject

if you think getting an intermediate boat is a cost savings consider:

- all the money you spend in maintaining it is GONE
- any money spent fixing it is GONE
- any money spend doing any type of upgrade is GONE
- any money spent in the buying process it is GONE
- time spend learning to sail on it instead of the boat you really want is GONE
- any money/commissions spent selling it after is GONE

You asked my opinion and I gave you mine. I am on my second boat and mt first boat was a 39' boat compared to my current of 43'. I had the first boat 2 years, but knew after 3 months that it wasn't really the boat I wanted. I figure it cost me $20k in those 2 years to have that boat instead of my current boat.

BTW - depreciation of a boat is a given and spending a lot of time worrying about it is like gambling. If depreciation is a concern you shouldn't get a boat.
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Old 03-10-2020, 09:34   #17
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

Your plan seems sound to me. I echo others to get out now (or as soon as you can), and get some real experience. I'm a big supported of getting a functional, inexpensive, cruising level boat and going now.

The problem most most people face is that they don't know what they don't know. The only way to start to know what you don't know is to get out there and get some real experience. Only then will you start to learn what is really important for you and yours.

Personally I would go smaller for your interim boat, but I guess that depends on your financial capabilities and ultimate plans.

One other thing is, while not a waste, I think chartering doesn't provide much in the way of advancing cruising knowledge. It does expose you to different boats, and different areas, but cruising involves a lot more than just sailing around on vacation.

Anyway, I think you're on the right track. Five years is a long time. Your plan will change. Just stay focused. Our five year plan turned into a 10 years plan. I moved onto our boat when I was 48. That was in 2014.
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Old 03-10-2020, 10:16   #18
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

Quote:
Originally Posted by flightlead404 View Post
Hi

"Long time reader, first time caller" and unsure to which forum this thread should be posted. So apologies if its in the wrong place.

So, like many, I've had a decades long dream of retiring and doing some liveaboard cruising. No grandiose ideas of a circumnavigation, my plan was 2-5 years swanning around the Carib (although my gf 29 years my junior just asked about Atlantic crossings so who knows).

I have "some" sailing experience. Dingy as a kid, crewed here and there on "round the beer cans" racing Catalina 29, have ASA 101, 103, 104, 106, 114 and a few bareboat charters in FL and Keys. Turning 55 in the spring, and planning on pushing away from the docks at the start of cruising season when I'm 60. Other slightly relevant experience is 30+ years of aircraft ownership, instrument commercial pilot (I flew airshows, low level formation aerobatics, not airliners), thousands of no-accident hours, and I'm a Turbo Porsche modification mad-scientist (think 1.21 gigawatts is enough).

How do I prepare?

We (gf and I) will be doing (and in my case re-doing) the ASA training in the next 6 months. The plan for the cruising vessel (no, not a '69 Buick Skylark) is a Catamaran in the high 30s to low 40's size (Lagoon 380S owners look nice) but for giggles I just tried to get insurance quotes and they ranged from $10k/year to "sorry no coverage available" so I assume some "big boat" ownership experience is needed.

Here's the plan then. Along with the training, do a couple of bareboat weeks or fortnights in the next 1-2 years then pick up a "biggish" monohull. Something in the 35-37' range and stick it on a mooring or slip in FL somewhere I can get to in around 2 hrs flight time from ATL. I'm thinking something that's "ready to go-ish", ie doesn't need immediate work or upgrades, and something that I can sell readily in 3-4 years to buy the final vessel. Then spend weekends and some weeks on the boat building time. Do the maintenance, but hopefully not put too much into it, sell it for a smallish depreciation and buy the appropriate catamaran 6-12 months before departure and spend that time upgrading as necessary as well as learning to sail her.

FWIW I'm a very hands on guy, I've maintained my own aircraft for 30 years including engine tear downs, done several full up panel/electronics re-fits, and have become rather an expert on maintaining/modifying mid-80's Porsche 911's engines and fuel systems, and an electronics/microcomputer hobbiest and use those skills to modify the ancient Porsches. So, while I don't have direct boat maintenance experience I'm not afraid to dig in. I'll pull a motor without fear, do electronics/nav systems installations etc, just can't weld.

So, at a high level, is my plan "on course"? What advise would you give me? And for those sailing in FL, east coast or west coast?

FWIW while I'm not Bill Gates, this is fully budgeted and I'm a cash buyer so no boat loans needed, not a relevant discussion (slip fees on the other hand...)
Just get the cat you want up front and spend whatever upgrades are needed on that boat rather than buying an interim mono hull which you intend to sell. Selling a sailboat can take a long time and any money you put into the boat, you probably won't get back. Since you'll be a cash buyer, the only insurance you'll need is liability (in case you smash up somebody else's boat). Marinas will require this as well as most mooring fields. You should find an almost cruise ready mid sized cat in about the $200,000 range, assuming you're not looking at something brand new or ancient. Look outside the box of the standard charter brands as there are some very nice boutique brands about 10 to 15 years old available that won't cost a penny more than a Lagoon of the same era.
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Old 03-10-2020, 10:51   #19
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

Quote:
Originally Posted by flightlead404 View Post
Yep. Done.

0-6 months, get trained/re-trained through ASA 114
6-18 months, 2-3 bareboat weeks
18 months, sell hotrod/buy intermediate boat
18-months - 48 months, sail it, tinker on it, stay on it
48-54 months sell it, buy next boat
54-66 months, sail it, configure it as needed
66 months, see ya!
Don't forget that a $75.000 mono hull could easily require another twenty grand before you can sail it and it won't even closely resemble the ride of a catamaran if you're worried about whether you'll like it. Get the cat as soon as possible and learn to sail that - if you find it's not for you, cats move a lot faster on the used boat market than mono hulls. If you're not comfortable on a cat, then sailing is probably not your thing.
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Old 03-10-2020, 11:55   #20
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

I am not a fan of the intermediate boat. Depreciation and time to sell it can take a toll.in.money time and frustration. Get the final boat a year or so out. I never owned a boat until.2003 when I bought a new 40 ft Jeanneau. Oh and I had never been on a boat until Dec 2000 when I took lessons. Getting insurance was an issue but eventually got some.
You probably have 2 issues getting a quote a.. you don't have a boat or an agreement to purchase one. It would be hard for a broker to do all the work necessary for nothing. B... the boat would be in that area called the hurricane zone and rates are high. I just sailed back across the Atlantic after 7 summer and 6 winters in the Med. My I insurance went up by about 20 to 30 percent. When I asked why they replied welcome back to the the Caribbean and hurricanes.
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Old 03-10-2020, 12:15   #21
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

If you’re a CPL/IFR and maintained your own plane, you won’t have any issues.

Just be sure to get used to the new to you boat first, day sailing and on up, simulate different docking and anchor situations, single handing, pulling the sails off the furlers, going up the mast, get intimate with your critical systems, locally before you set off for the horizon.
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Old 03-10-2020, 12:36   #22
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

Quote:
Originally Posted by flightlead404 View Post
Hi

"Long time reader, first time caller" and unsure to which forum this thread should be posted. So apologies if its in the wrong place.

So, like many, I've had a decades long dream of retiring and doing some liveaboard cruising. No grandiose ideas of a circumnavigation, my plan was 2-5 years swanning around the Carib (although my gf 29 years my junior just asked about Atlantic crossings so who knows).

I have "some" sailing experience. Dingy as a kid, crewed here and there on "round the beer cans" racing Catalina 29, have ASA 101, 103, 104, 106, 114 and a few bareboat charters in FL and Keys. Turning 55 in the spring, and planning on pushing away from the docks at the start of cruising season when I'm 60. Other slightly relevant experience is 30+ years of aircraft ownership, instrument commercial pilot (I flew airshows, low level formation aerobatics, not airliners), thousands of no-accident hours, and I'm a Turbo Porsche modification mad-scientist (think 1.21 gigawatts is enough).

How do I prepare?

We (gf and I) will be doing (and in my case re-doing) the ASA training in the next 6 months. The plan for the cruising vessel (no, not a '69 Buick Skylark) is a Catamaran in the high 30s to low 40's size (Lagoon 380S owners look nice) but for giggles I just tried to get insurance quotes and they ranged from $10k/year to "sorry no coverage available" so I assume some "big boat" ownership experience is needed.

Here's the plan then. Along with the training, do a couple of bareboat weeks or fortnights in the next 1-2 years then pick up a "biggish" monohull. Something in the 35-37' range and stick it on a mooring or slip in FL somewhere I can get to in around 2 hrs flight time from ATL. I'm thinking something that's "ready to go-ish", ie doesn't need immediate work or upgrades, and something that I can sell readily in 3-4 years to buy the final vessel. Then spend weekends and some weeks on the boat building time. Do the maintenance, but hopefully not put too much into it, sell it for a smallish depreciation and buy the appropriate catamaran 6-12 months before departure and spend that time upgrading as necessary as well as learning to sail her.

FWIW I'm a very hands on guy, I've maintained my own aircraft for 30 years including engine tear downs, done several full up panel/electronics re-fits, and have become rather an expert on maintaining/modifying mid-80's Porsche 911's engines and fuel systems, and an electronics/microcomputer hobbiest and use those skills to modify the ancient Porsches. So, while I don't have direct boat maintenance experience I'm not afraid to dig in. I'll pull a motor without fear, do electronics/nav systems installations etc, just can't weld.

So, at a high level, is my plan "on course"? What advise would you give me? And for those sailing in FL, east coast or west coast?

FWIW while I'm not Bill Gates, this is fully budgeted and I'm a cash buyer so no boat loans needed, not a relevant discussion (slip fees on the other hand...)
Contrary to several others I think that an intermediate boat is an OK idea. It doesn't have to be one which needs a lot of upgrades or improvements before it is usable for now, lots are ready to go. The important thing is to get some time, as much as possible, sailing it. Get a monohull and charter some cats. Time on the water, lots of it, is essential so you can really know what to buy as a final boat.

Don't worry about the expensive insurance quotes. Buy a cheap boat and just put liability on it, (you are going to lose much no natter what happens)

Don't worry about the depreciation of the intermediate boat, So what if you lose 10,000 or 20,000 in it in 5 years. You'll save that much on insurance and berthing over the cat you want.

Just don't spend a lot of money on improvements on the intermediate boat, that money you will certainly loose.
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Old 03-10-2020, 14:05   #23
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

Thanks

I fly an RV-8 fwiw. Wrt to your example, I'm often asked that question. My response is usually "buy a 10k piper chief or some cheap tail dragger and learn to fly in that, because you'll learn to FLY not to manage systems. Then, if you like it, sell and get the bo/310 or whatever.

I guess my cheap piper is your $15k boat example, not the $75k for an Oceanis 36 or whatever. I do get your point.

It seems most on the thread are panning my idea of an interim short-term boat and recommending more chartering and getting the final boat maybe a year or two earlier. I'm now swinging around to that idea. We'd get to see some different places and an opportunity to try some different boats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
I agree it's a waste of money*...but let's use an airplane example that you've seen many times to see where your philosophy is at.

So you're introduced to a banker who wants to become a pilot. He's read about planes and ultimately wants a Bonanza, but isn't sure if he should buy a starter plane, or go straight to the Bo.

Starter-plane advocates say "start cheap, maybe you won't like flying, 172 parts are cheaper than Bonanza parts, 172s are more forgiving, etc, etc." Go big, go early Bonanza first advocates point out that Lufthansa solos (or used to) their ab initio pilots in Bonanzas (clearly with top/comprehensive training), and that...if you start with a starter plane...invariably you're going to do a lot of physical labor and $$$ in parts "making things right" on your Cherokee....hours/$$$ that you won't get back on sale when you sell the Cherokee to buy the Bo....so why not just get the Bo in the first place such that those same hours work/$$$ fixing your plane results in a more pristine Bonanza. In other words, why effectively 'bring up to your snuff' two planes instead of just 1.

If you're very disciplined to buy a starter boat and not muck around dumping money (saying nothing about time) into fixing every this and that (which I assume pilots are prone to doing)...then perhaps a starter boat isn't a waste of money.

*If your starter boat is a $15k boat (Cherokee equivalent) with good rigging, sails, engine, and fuel tank...then I think you'd be okay with such a boat. On resale this would be easier to flip and/or if you re-sold the boat for $10k for a quick sale you're only out $5k. Buyers of $75k boats are more like Bonanza people who don't want to hear excuses and/or they'll insist on talking you out of more than $5k when you go to sell.

Otherwise, I'm not sure if you've been in Cessna 150 lately, but they're a little harder to fly than a 172. You've got to pay a little more attention, fly the wing more than rely on thrust, and they get pushed around more...which is sort of fun, more pure. I'd suggest that the same applies to boats...if you're going to get a starter boat, consider going smaller than you think you'd like. This may not impress the crowd but I'd suggest it'd be more fun, and frankly cheaper if you buy right and resist the urge to 'upgrade' stuff while figuring out your final boat solution.
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Old 03-10-2020, 14:27   #24
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

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Contrary to several others I think that an intermediate boat is an OK idea. It doesn't have to be one which needs a lot of upgrades or improvements before it is usable for now, lots are ready to go. The important thing is to get some time, as much as possible, sailing it. Get a monohull and charter some cats. Time on the water, lots of it, is essential so you can really know what to buy as a final boat.

Don't worry about the expensive insurance quotes. Buy a cheap boat and just put liability on it, (you are going to lose that much no natter what happens)

Don't worry about the depreciation of the intermediate boat, So what if you lose 10,000 or 20,000 in it in 5 years. You'll save that much on insurance and berthing over the cat you want.

Just don't spend a lot of money on improvements on the intermediate boat, that money you will certainly loose.



Hello, flighthead404,

I think your plan is doable. And I think an interim boat is a good idea, because the main thing is you and your good lady need sea time. I agree with wingssail on this, and the reason is that over the past 35 years of cruising, we see a lot of older cruisers who, motor when they could be sailing, who don't have their cooperative routines worked out, and who are insecure anchorers. The most important thing you need is time on boats on the ocean, outside protected waters, and time in anchorages in varied conditions, and it will inform future choices. One of the ways to get this is to buy an extremely modest little racer cruiser and race it. You'll learn a lot about sail trim, and how to handle yourselves on a boat.

I would also suggest that your good lady takes the sailing courses with a different instructor than you. This eliminates any tendency she may have to kowtow to you or not compete with you, and although the course material is the same, each instructor is a different individual who brings different strengths to teaching, so that you'll bet more bang for your bucks. When it's just the two of you, you need your good lady to be able to do everything you do with regards to sailing and navigating the boat, assuming you cannot use the engine. Then each of you are able to be confident in each other...and can sleep soundly on your off watches.

It seems a definitely doable plan, to me, enjoy.

Ann
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Old 03-10-2020, 15:42   #25
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

The problem with racing is....well I'm slightly competitive.

In fact, I bet I'm more competitive than you! (lol). I mean, when I get into a competition the red mist comes down, the fangs come out, and its full on.

Not conducive to my plan I think lol

Yes, team work is critical and I've already told both my gf and the instructor that she's the focus and that she needs to have the skill and confidence to boss me around when she's at the helm. At 4.92' tall and < 100 lbs she'll be at the helm and I'll be handling anchors

She's hardcore though. A few years ago I took her to Bonaire to get her scuba cert. She said she "wasn't a strong swimmer". I said "don't worry about it". Turns out "not a strong swimmer" meant not only couldn't swim at all but had a deathly fear of the water.

Certified in 3 days and we love to dive together.

She's not deep technical trimix and cave like me, but that's fine...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPA Cate View Post
[/B]

Hello, flighthead404,

I think your plan is doable. And I think an interim boat is a good idea, because the main thing is you and your good lady need sea time. I agree with wingssail on this, and the reason is that over the past 35 years of cruising, we see a lot of older cruisers who, motor when they could be sailing, who don't have their cooperative routines worked out, and who are insecure anchorers. The most important thing you need is time on boats on the ocean, outside protected waters, and time in anchorages in varied conditions, and it will inform future choices. One of the ways to get this is to buy an extremely modest little racer cruiser and race it. You'll learn a lot about sail trim, and how to handle yourselves on a boat.

I would also suggest that your good lady takes the sailing courses with a different instructor than you. This eliminates any tendency she may have to kowtow to you or not compete with you, and although the course material is the same, each instructor is a different individual who brings different strengths to teaching, so that you'll bet more bang for your bucks. When it's just the two of you, you need your good lady to be able to do everything you do with regards to sailing and navigating the boat, assuming you cannot use the engine. Then each of you are able to be confident in each other...and can sleep soundly on your off watches.

It seems a definitely doable plan, to me, enjoy.

Ann
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Old 03-10-2020, 19:21   #26
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

People have sailed around the world and across oceans in every conceivable type of craft....solo...male...female...old...young...with crew...with children..etc..lots of money..no money...large boat..small boat...expensive boats...cheap boats...rafts...steel boat..fiberglass boats...rowboats...surfboards...the list is endless....

This thread is just talk....if you're gonna do it, just do it...you don't need to discuss it with anyone, ask anyone's thoughts, opinions or advice.....compare notes...tell anyone...have a "plan", etc..that is all plain b/s.....just go !!! 99.9% of people that spend their time "discussing" their "plan" with strangers never go anywhere.

D'ye think Joshua Slocum first went and talked to a cruising forum...hell no....he just left...just like many after him...He didn't find the "perfect" boat either...he asked no-one's opinion or advice...

I know of no rtw sailor that ever enlisted the aid of a cruising forum to get going. Not one !!! They got their stuff together and left. Never asked anybody's opinion, advice or blessing. They left in whatever craft they could afford or otherwise. They left when the time was right for them.

There is no "ideal" boat anymore than there is an "ideal" time or an "ideal" age. Every person that has done a rtw trip has done it on a boat that was " ideal" for them at the "ideal" time.

There is no telling what a trip will be like. Any number of misfortunes can happen to the most prepared person on the most prepared boat.

What's important is YOU....yes, you the sailor !! You don't need anybody's advice, blessing or otherwise. It doesn't matter whether you have a $100 in your pocket or $1,000,000. It matters squat !!! Your age matters squat !! The age of your partner matters squat !!

What matters is the drive in your soul. The lust for adventure. Your ability to tackle adversities, etc, Coming here to this forum to " chat" about your goals is not the way to do it. That's just "talk. Send us a post card from Tahiti, that way we'll know you did it.
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Old 03-10-2020, 20:21   #27
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

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...D'ye think Joshua Slocum first went and talked to a cruising forum...hell no....he just left...just like many after him...He didn't find the "perfect" boat either...he asked no-one's opinion or advice...
Joshua Slocum was a Master Mariner before he bought Spray. He knew about sailing and sailboats and he didn't just buy her and take off, he rebuilt the boat to his liking.

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...There is no "ideal" boat anymore than there is an "ideal" time or an "ideal" age. Every person that has done a rtw trip has done it on a boat that was " ideal" for them at the "ideal" time...
I see far too many people who bought a boat without really knowing what they wanted out of cruising and living aboard, got a boat which was unsatisfying (or maybe the lifestyle was unsatisfying) and in a couple of years they were out of it. Or maybe they kept the boat for a few more but never sailed it.

I think that some time taken to gain some experience on the water, some in-depth experience, will provide benefit. The OP would be more likely to find out what they like and don't like and more likely to have an enjoyable life on the water later with the boat of their dreams.

Yes, almost anybody and any boat can make it around the world with a strong will and lot of perseverance. But cruising and living aboard is more than ticking off a RTW box.

Frankly, I could make it around the world on a lot of boats, but if it wasn't my boat, I'd hate it.
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Old 03-10-2020, 21:20   #28
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

I'm with Wing and Ann and others who say it is worth gaining actual experience with a starter boat first. Yes, it will cost you something. But if you do it wisely the price will be well worth the value gained in actual experience and knowledge.
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Old 03-10-2020, 22:01   #29
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

I'm understanding what McHughIV is getting at, the concept of don't type about it, go do it!

But for a man who is looking at a retirement plan and who wants it all to come to fruition, it doesn't seem unreasonable to look at a forum for feedback. Doesn't mean he will follow the advice.

I think low level club racing is a good place to get experience, but that's how I started out, before Jim and I met. I learned from crewing with different skippers, as well as gaining confidence. Jim found a lady who was already a sailor, not too bad a move.

Jim and I have "come up" from sailing smaller boats and living aboard a 36 footer before we got this boat, and so it seems a known, very doable way. The internet was pretty much a thing of the future back then, so chatting about cruising was done via local clubs. Or returning cruisers. One was pretty much on one's own except for books, and lectures. I can't really criticize someone who says buy the "real" boat now, because I have not had that experience. But I do know a way that works, and I have seen the folks sailing who haven't bothered to have both of them get good at it, heard the stressed voices on the water countless times.

I think flightlead404 and his good lady sound like they have an admirable level of spirit for the task, and should do well. And there's a lot of information available. However, they NEED SEATIME together.

Ann

@flightlead: any time two boats are headed in the same direction, it is a race. Normal primate behavior. Enjoy.
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Old 04-10-2020, 06:27   #30
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Re: Critique my 5-year plan

It's not my intent to bash anyone or their dreams.

Area marina's are stacked with boats that never go anywhere. Area yards are piled high with broken dreams. I've chatted with countless "dreamers". I've had countless "dreamers" sail with me, for just one day and then reality sets in. Others, after a two week voyage, swear to the heavens they will never set foot on the ocean again.

I get it, sailing off into the sunset, is the dream of many, and why not, but the reality is that penning your thoughts from the comfort of your armchair behind a computer is quite different from reality. Living on a 35-40' boat is nowhere near like living in a house. Use a bike to go to grocery store, in the rain, then carry your bags to you boat. Or walk to the store and dinghy your groceries back to your anchored boat. It's all these little things that quickly determine one's zeal.

Talk is cheap, action speaks much louder than words. Starter boat, big boat, none of it really matters. Get out there and do it, get some real world experience.

Get some blue water over your deck, spray in your face, stand some midnight watches, try cooking a meal at a 20 degree angle, fix a leak at midnight, etc, these are the realities.

Seriously, crew on a boat for a week or two and then pen your thoughts.

Don't confuse the romantic side with the reality side. It has been said here before by others, 5 year plan? I nearly spilled my beer. You have no idea what your health will be like in 5 years. No idea what the global political side will be, etc.

I got $10 here that sez this 5 year plan will never materialize. I've seen and read a lot of these threads. It's a fun thing to do to discuss one's dream, but the reality is that real world experience is the only way to accomplish it.
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