Comfort and capzie ratios

[glcalahan]

Thank you! Been rebuilding this '72 P33 for last 2 1/2 yrs!! Everything new and too much money for this cruise! All a great challenge!

Carry on....

[Jim Cate]

GLC, relax, mon! You ain't talking about doubling cape Stiff in the winter. Your Pearson will be just fine for your proposed voyage and many more challenging ones should you desire.

I'm often amused... perhaps appalled is a better term... by the folks who deem it necessary to have some sort of super hero design to do relatively benign coastal or near coastal passages such as your plan. We've been in anchorages throughout the Pacific, and shared them with boats far less capable than yours. Some attention to season and specific wx patterns will see you safely through your near term plans. After that experience you will be better equipped to plan future passages, and I bet that you won't be worried about the boat!

Jim

[glcalahan]

"Once upon an Island mon, no problem!" "De very very best **** on the Island! Mon." Once said.....

Thanks....much appreciate the support. When all this came about, I suggested my plans and got so much kickback. I was thinking people have made so many crossing in open boats......

[GordMay]

What Gz Curves Tell Us about a Sailboat's Static Stability
☞ https://www.sailboat-cruising.com/gz-curves.html

[barnakiel]

The screening formula, like any other, is just that. While you understand what it does and how it does its thing, you are 100% fine.


Next step, you must ask yourself: capsized BY WHAT?


By a truck pulling a halyard tied to the top of the mast?


By a rolling (white water) wave?


By a steep non-sinusoidal wave?


etc.


It is not true then, that a boat with plenty of ballast and very low is 'more resistant to capsize'. It is not. It is only more resistant to some kinds of capsize.


Think of an extreme carbon hull with low bulb lead ballast, carbon and spectra rig, racing sails..



Now think of a same hull where the whole fin is lead,and where the mast is a heavy alloy extrusion and the sails are dacrons rolled into the mast / round forestays.


Which will be more resistant to a dynamic capsize (hit by a white water rolling wave)?


Plenty of ballast low is not a solution to everything, much as it may in some situations be a good ingredient in your search for a 'safe' boat.


b.

[Nicholson58]

I think the term Coastal Cruiser is applied based more on perceived strength and durability. All boats can be uncomfortable given the wrong conditions. Our 58 foot, 40 ton beast can beat us up too. I suspect your old hull is solid glass, overly thick and more capable than most modern boats. We live aboard in the Caribbean and most other cruisers are riding 70’s & 80’s boats. They are brutally tough as a lot.

I suggest you consider heading farther south to the eastern Caribbean. We find that recently hurricane whacked places are not great venues unless you intend to roll up your sleeves and assist. You will find supplies and fuel in short supply and marinas wrecked. At least do some homework before you go.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by glcalahan

I was told by a sailing FB group that the P33 is a coastal cruiser. I get that, however don't fundamentally agree. Given a good weather window, a sound (everything in the boat is new) and prudent, cautious attitude will I be okay???

You will be just fine.

That is as soon as you stop listening to the old book readers.

[TrentePieds]

I see this thread is still alive, so glcalahan, note what Don CL has told you, specifically the article he cites. You say: “I was told by a sailing FB group that the P33 is a coastal cruiser.” You will now have concluded that we've gone a little off track in answering and elaborating on your query :-)

The P33 is indeed a “coastal cruiser”! So, why is it that? Why is she not a “”blue water boat”? It's because her hull does NOT have the structural integrity that would qualify her as a “blue water boat”. That doesn't mean that she is not a sound design, or of sound contruction. It merely means that she was designed and built to meet the stresses one meets in coastal cruising although not to meet those possibly met with in the open ocean. She may indeed do very well “off soundings” until and unless the fit hits the shan. The following passage his “harvested” from Wikipedia because that's convenient for me just now, but no sailorman who is serious about voyaging should fail to read the book whence it comes, viz Once is Enough by Miles and Beryl Smeeton:

Approaching Cape Horn, the yacht was pitchpoled by a rogue wave. Beryl, who had been on the helm, was tossed from the boat and injured. Tzu Hang was dismasted, partially submerged, and the topsides were severely damaged, but the three sailors managed to sail the damaged vessel to Chile, where extensive repairs were undertaken. In 1957, a year later, Miles and Beryl departed again to round Cape Horn. However, in approximately the same position, beset by storms, another dismasting took place. Again, they managed to make the coast of Chile, and Tzu Hang was shipped to England for repairs. These adventures were published in their acclaimed cruising book, Once is Enough.

Tzu Hang was a very conventional design for the 1930s when she was built. Wooden construction, of course, and therefore of lesser structural integrity than that of our modern, monocoque “frozen snot” boats. For me, the “pinch points” for a boat that would go where Tzu Hang went are these: 1) Hatches and ports must be able to withstand green water sweeping over the decks without being borne away or leaking significantly. 2) Cockpit must be so small that being filled by a pooping wave will not impair the boats stability while the water drains through the scuppers. In consequence we have the corollary that the scuppers must be big enough to drain a full cockpict very quickly. 3) ALL, and I mean ALL, gear and stores much stow below decks, and every item must be able to be secured so that in the event of a roll-over or a pitch-pole it cannot become a projectile that can hurt either the boat itself of the people in her. That includes any crew confined below decks!

In addition, because a roll-over or a pitch-pole is almost certain to result in a dismasting, it is essential that standing rigging should be so arranged that the downed rigging can be cut free within a few minutes. The butt-end of a spar stabbing against the hull in a violent sea is the kind of thing that punctures a hull and leads to a sinking. I haven't actually sunk a boat on that account, but I have had my heart in my mouth for LONG time while in a sea that was but moderate by ocean standards, a rather diminutive woman and I brought the downed rigging back aboard and secured it. The memory of that night still makes me shiver!

The above is, I'm sure, capable of elaboration and augmentation. My purpose is not to lay down “criteria”, but simply to tell you how I think about these things, so that you, yourself, may think through your own circumstances and requirements in a systematic fashion.

You will find that the sailing competence of “blue water” boats” is not significantly different from that of “coastal” boats because the fundamental design parameters are not significantly different. “Blue water boats” are really no more than your coastal boat structually beefed up to take a beating far more severe than that Poseidon normally hands out to the coastwise cruiser.

If I am not mistaken, the Europeans have, in fact, a classification scheme for factory built boats that recognizes these sorts of things.

Regards

TrentePieds

[Nicholson58]

I put you 70’s plastic over that 30’s wood any day.

Remember folks. The OP plans to sail the Caribbean NOT in hurricane season. He is not circumnavigating in the southern latitudes. With modern connectivity and weather data there is no reason a well maintained older boat with new modern equipment can’t do this. We have seen plenty of real junk cruising the windwards and Leewards. This is not one of them.

BTW, we have a subscription to Chris PARKER as our weather planner. Money well spent for every long passage. Other than that, I use SAILFLOW and the admiral downloads gribs. We don’t leave anchor unless we have an acceptable window.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

I see this thread is still alive, so glcalahan, note what Don CL has told you, specifically the article he cites. You say: “I was told by a sailing FB group that the P33 is a coastal cruiser.” You will now have concluded that we've gone a little off track in answering and elaborating on your query :-)

The P33 is indeed a “coastal cruiser”! So, why is it that? Why is she not a “”blue water boat”? It's because her hull does NOT have the structural integrity that would qualify her as a “blue water boat”. That doesn't mean that she is not a sound design, or of sound contruction. It merely means that she was designed and built to meet the stresses one meets in coastal cruising although not to meet those possibly met with in the open ocean. She may indeed do very well “off soundings” until and unless the fit hits the shan. The following passage his “harvested” from Wikipedia because that's convenient for me just now, but no sailorman who is serious about voyaging should fail to read the book whence it comes, viz Once is Enough by Miles and Beryl Smeeton:

Approaching Cape Horn, the yacht was pitchpoled by a rogue wave. Beryl, who had been on the helm, was tossed from the boat and injured. Tzu Hang was dismasted, partially submerged, and the topsides were severely damaged, but the three sailors managed to sail the damaged vessel to Chile, where extensive repairs were undertaken. In 1957, a year later, Miles and Beryl departed again to round Cape Horn. However, in approximately the same position, beset by storms, another dismasting took place. Again, they managed to make the coast of Chile, and Tzu Hang was shipped to England for repairs. These adventures were published in their acclaimed cruising book, Once is Enough.

Tzu Hang was a very conventional design for the 1930s when she was built. Wooden construction, of course, and therefore of lesser structural integrity than that of our modern, monocoque “frozen snot” boats. For me, the “pinch points” for a boat that would go where Tzu Hang went are these: 1) Hatches and ports must be able to withstand green water sweeping over the decks without being borne away or leaking significantly. 2) Cockpit must be so small that being filled by a pooping wave will not impair the boats stability while the water drains through the scuppers. In consequence we have the corollary that the scuppers must be big enough to drain a full cockpict very quickly. 3) ALL, and I mean ALL, gear and stores much stow below decks, and every item must be able to be secured so that in the event of a roll-over or a pitch-pole it cannot become a projectile that can hurt either the boat itself of the people in her. That includes any crew confined below decks!

In addition, because a roll-over or a pitch-pole is almost certain to result in a dismasting, it is essential that standing rigging should be so arranged that the downed rigging can be cut free within a few minutes. The butt-end of a spar stabbing against the hull in a violent sea is the kind of thing that punctures a hull and leads to a sinking. I haven't actually sunk a boat on that account, but I have had my heart in my mouth for LONG time while in a sea that was but moderate by ocean standards, a rather diminutive woman and I brought the downed rigging back aboard and secured it. The memory of that night still makes me shiver!

The above is, I'm sure, capable of elaboration and augmentation. My purpose is not to lay down “criteria”, but simply to tell you how I think about these things, so that you, yourself, may think through your own circumstances and requirements in a systematic fashion.

You will find that the sailing competence of “blue water” boats” is not significantly different from that of “coastal” boats because the fundamental design parameters are not significantly different. “Blue water boats” are really no more than your coastal boat structually beefed up to take a beating far more severe than that Poseidon normally hands out to the coastwise cruiser.

If I am not mistaken, the Europeans have, in fact, a classification scheme for factory built boats that recognizes these sorts of things.

Regards

TrentePieds

Crikeys, mate, the OP is proposing a passage to the Bahamas, not Cape Stiff.

IMO your comments are kinda inappropriate to the conversation, and will tend to unnecessarily scare the OP.

Jim

[barnakiel]

So now that I have bashed the comfort ratio formula and have proven it is WRONG.


And having shared my enlightened insight on capsize screening formula ....


;-)


b.

[barnakiel]

Sharing is caring. Sail safe!


b.

[TrentePieds]

Don't worry Jim - the OP is smart enuff to read CAREFULLY and understand that his "pinch points" needn't be the same as mine.

But in any event you'll be the first to admit that the key to it all - other than the boat's structural integrity - is to be able to work effectively and efficiently AFTER you've filled your knickers. Myles Smeeton certainly was. But I s'pose having spent the war years in Burma would have taught him that sort of thing :-)!

TP

[glcalahan]

Wow....

I did not get note of theae additional postings. I just now am reading them....

Without addressing each post, will concurs with most. To be clear, I am not placing my CC ( coastal cruiser) I the same category of a true BW yacht. My DownEaster 38 I would have....

I plan to island hop the Caribbean. Even tho I am considering BVI & USVI which would be longer passages.

While it is true a 1972 Pearson is heavily layed glass I have also replaced standing rigging and inspected/sand blasted chain plates. All sails are new as is the upgraded Lermar #42 2 spd self tailing mains and a new upgraded main sheet track and blocks. All new sheets/halyards. The post regarding ".......capsizing buy an island..." I am doing everything I can do to avoid vaporizing and regards the boat.

The rest is prudent weather windows and seamanship. "You don't know what you know, until you learn what you don't." GC

Further....the longer cruise to VI? Thoughts??? How about Keys to Isla Mujueres across the Gulf??

I appreciate all of your input. Jim, your points are well taken! Thank you.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by glcalahan

1 - The rest is prudent weather windows and seamanship. "You don't know what you know, until you learn what you don't." GC

2 - Further....the longer cruise to VI? Thoughts??? How about Keys to Isla Mujueres across the Gulf??

If you consider 1 you will be just fine on 2 on a Pearson 33 in good condition.

Stop sweating the small stuff. Choose your weather and go (before age becomes the issue)!