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Old 05-12-2017, 19:42   #1111
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Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Who needs an Operator Card?

Everyone who operates a power-driven boat needs proof of competency — something that shows they understand the basic rules and how to safely operate a boat. The most common proof of competency is the Pleasure Craft Operator Card.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafet...q-2233.htm#who

The IYT ICC is also acceptable. It actually has a practical assessment.
Is there a grandfather clause in the proof of competency requirement there in Canada?

In many US states boaters over a certain age are not required to have Boater Education Cards in the states that require them.
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Old 05-12-2017, 19:50   #1112
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Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA

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Is there a grandfather clause in the proof of competency requirement there in Canada?

In many US states boaters over a certain age are not required to have Boater Education Cards in the states that require them.
"Will boaters who have previously taken a boating safety course be required to take another course or test?

Those who have taken a boating safety course prior to April 1, 1999 will not be required to take another course or test. A copy of a certificate or a card issued at the completion of courses taken prior to April 1, 1999 will need to be carried on board the pleasure craft."

The requirement is national, not provincial.
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Old 05-12-2017, 19:52   #1113
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Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Who needs an Operator Card?

Everyone who operates a power-driven boat needs proof of competency — something that shows they understand the basic rules and how to safely operate a boat. The most common proof of competency is the Pleasure Craft Operator Card.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafet...q-2233.htm#who

The IYT ICC is also acceptable. It actually has a practical assessment.
Additionally...

If you go boating in the United States, the Pleasure Craft Operator Card is recognized by the United States Coast Guard and the U.S. National Association of State Boating Law Administrators (NASBLA) as meeting their education standards. (This is known as “reciprocity.”)
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Old 05-12-2017, 19:55   #1114
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Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA

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Is the PCOC license mandatory for all recreational boaters in Canada, or are there limitations based on type of vessel, boat size, years of experience, etc.?
There are a few exceptions to requiring a PCOC:

Boats without an engine.

Boats operated in Nunavut or NWT.

Rental boats ... there is some half-baked system of the rental agency being able to sign you off as competent without documentation.

Foreign boats visiting Canada for less than 45 days are exempt, but after that they need to have either a PCOC or something equivalent issued by their own country/state.
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Old 05-12-2017, 19:58   #1115
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Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA

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Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Additionally...

If you go boating in the United States, the Pleasure Craft Operator Card is recognized by the United States Coast Guard and the U.S. National Association of State Boating Law Administrators (NASBLA) as meeting their education standards. (This is known as “reciprocity.”)
True - Ironically there is no reciprocity for safety standards. Canadian boats in US waters have to meet USCG standards. A Canadian approved pfd does not necessarily meet US standards. I learned that one the hard way when I was almost cited for my pfd on an inspection at Neah Bay.
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Old 05-12-2017, 19:58   #1116
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Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA

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Strawman!

Didn't say it was.

Completely irrelevant with reference to my post.
No it's not. Re-read the part from your post that I bolded:

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Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Hmmm, recent discussion raises a new question.

If a recreational boater, takes a bunch of courses and passes exams, are they now required by maritime law to use that knowledge, where a rec boater who hasn't isn't?

IOW, if John Doe has no special training and James Doe decides to get his Master's License, would a maritime court hold James to a higher level of competence expectation than John?

I know I would if I were the Judge or Jury.
Holding James to a higher level of competence is exactly the same as holding John to a lower level. Lodesman correctly responded that such comparative ignorance (on the part of John) would not be relevant in assessing their respective culpabilities in the event of an incident. No different from the commercial ship vs. recreational yacht. You just missed the logic of Lodesman's response, or maybe still haven't figured out the difference between standards & responsibilities under the Colregs. This inability or unwillingness to understand or follow the law would disqualify you from sitting as judge or jury.
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Old 05-12-2017, 19:59   #1117
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Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA

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Originally Posted by Kelkara View Post
There are a few exceptions to requiring a PCOC:

Boats without an engine.

Boats operated in Nunavut or NWT.

Rental boats ... there is some half-baked system of the rental agency being able to sign you off as competent without documentation.

Foreign boats visiting Canada for less than 45 days are exempt, but after that they need to have either a PCOC or something equivalent issued by their own country/state.
All true.
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Old 05-12-2017, 20:01   #1118
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Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Who needs an Operator Card?

Everyone who operates a power-driven boat needs proof of competency — something that shows they understand the basic rules and how to safely operate a boat. The most common proof of competency is the Pleasure Craft Operator Card.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafet...q-2233.htm#who

The IYT ICC is also acceptable. It actually has a practical assessment.
Not the case in the US AFAIK, although I have heard that a few states have recently imposed some requirements. My info could be out of date . . . .
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Old 05-12-2017, 20:02   #1119
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Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA

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Well, I know a lot of people.

Prolly half of them are boaters.

I don't know anyone who has been killed in a rec vessel collision.
OK so far we have just changed the argument to "killed in a rec vessel collision". That is misrepresented version of the position of the argument. Which is a key feature of a Strawman argument.

Quote:
I know lots who have been hurt by substance abuse.

Far more that have been hurt on motorcycles or automobiles.
All of these are true no doubt but they are Red Herrings and Avoiding the Issue.

Quote:
In my opinion, substance abuse is one of the biggest issues going, and far, far, far, more devastating than the knowledge or competence of the average boater.

So until that is cleaned up, I suggest holding of on mandating any additional training or licensing for boaters.
Another misrepresentation for the position of the argument. Strawman again.

Not to speak of the Nirvana Fallacy.


Of course there are formal definitions for each of the logical fallacies. And in a logical debate where there are strict rules of engagement that is fine.

However, in a more open conversation such as here on CF we do not need to adhere strictly to the laws of logic. We are allowed to be somewhat more relaxed. Which gives rise to a Double Standard. Which is where on person claims that the other is breaking the laws of logic all the while not holding themselves to the same standard.
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Old 05-12-2017, 20:12   #1120
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Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
True - Ironically there is no reciprocity for safety standards. Canadian boats in US waters have to meet USCG standards. A Canadian approved pfd does not necessarily meet US standards. I learned that one the hard way when I was almost cited for my pfd on an inspection at Neah Bay.
YOU???! In violation of a safety reg??! Say it ain't so!
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Old 05-12-2017, 20:20   #1121
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Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA

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+1 Yes, indeedy.

As a Canadian, Rod should also be knowledgeable about the Canadian modifications to the IRPCS.
There are a lot of troubles with the boaters competency card program.

1. Boat renters are not required to have them. (The rental company representative goes over a safety checklist with the renter.) Lots of scary-ass house boat renters around.

2. It is not proof of competence. It is proof that one passed a test at some point in time. 10 years from now, one boater may know absolute sweet dick all, where the other one, practicing boating daily, is highly competent.

It's something, but mandatory training and licensing is not the answer to the complaint that boaters don't know or heed ColRegs IMHO.

I know lots of sailors with competency cards I won't sail with.

Why?

I doubt they could retrieve me if I fell overboard.

I don't like putting my life in other people's hands, and seriously, no amount of training will change that.

Proof of competency TO ME, is what will.

That is also why, I wear a harness and tether, as soon as conditions are to the point where I suspect my wife could not easily come back and get me.

Part of it is that I don't wanna die, and the other part of it is, I wouldn't want her to have to live with the consequences, if she couldn't.

Basically, I put the hatch boards in and attach the harness (in my PFD) when the main is reefed. Typically around 15 knots and 3 foot seas.

I took my son and a friend out this summer when the tail end of Irma blew through Lake Ontario.

6 OPP officers were dispatched to our marina to investigate the boat "in trouble" as reported by someone onshore. We got a call from the marina. You guys OK out there? Response, "Yup, just practicing some heavy weather sailing."
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Old 05-12-2017, 20:58   #1122
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Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
True - Ironically there is no reciprocity for safety standards. Canadian boats in US waters have to meet USCG standards. A Canadian approved pfd does not necessarily meet US standards. I learned that one the hard way when I was almost cited for my pfd on an inspection at Neah Bay.
Sorry about that. Let me offer an apology for my countrymen.

If I recall right, Neah Bay is not a port of entry so I assume that the CG stationed there were (being jerks, em) bored.

As a side note - I once was attempting to come alongside the fuel dock in Neah Bay with a rather gusty wind blowing crosswise to the dock.

My father-in-law was at the shrouds looking like he was going to jump onto the dock. I was telling him to stay on the boat and to not jump in Russian. (he does not speak English)

Two Coast Guard personal were on the dock watching the whole thing. And as expected a gust came up and pushed us off the dock just before my father-in-law jumped.

Lucky(?) for him he held onto the shrouds with his legs in the water up to his knees as the boat weather vaned away from the dock.

I ended up reversing into the wind and brought our transom up to the fuel dock. Once the stern was tied off I was able to help him back on board and then take a line from the bow to winch the boat alongside the dock.

All the while the Coast Guard just watched us and then walked away once we were tied up.

But I digress.
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Old 05-12-2017, 21:03   #1123
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Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA

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Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
There are a lot of troubles with the boaters competency card program.

1. Boat renters are not required to have them. (The rental company representative goes over a safety checklist with the renter.) Lots of scary-ass house boat renters around.

2. It is not proof of competence. It is proof that one passed a test at some point in time. 10 years from now, one boater may know absolute sweet dick all, where the other one, practicing boating daily, is highly competent.

It's something, but mandatory training and licensing is not the answer to the complaint that boaters don't know or heed ColRegs IMHO.

I know lots of sailors with competency cards I won't sail with.

Why?

I doubt they could retrieve me if I fell overboard.

I don't like putting my life in other people's hands, and seriously, no amount of training will change that.

Proof of competency TO ME, is what will.

That is also why, I wear a harness and tether, as soon as conditions are to the point where I suspect my wife could not easily come back and get me.

Part of it is that I don't wanna die, and the other part of it is, I wouldn't want her to have to live with the consequences, if she couldn't.

Basically, I put the hatch boards in and attach the harness (in my PFD) when the main is reefed. Typically around 15 knots and 3 foot seas.

I took my son and a friend out this summer when the tail end of Irma blew through Lake Ontario.

6 OPP officers were dispatched to our marina to investigate the boat "in trouble" as reported by someone onshore. We got a call from the marina. You guys OK out there? Response, "Yup, just practicing some heavy weather sailing."
Agreed on most counts.
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Old 05-12-2017, 21:06   #1124
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Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA

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YOU???! In violation of a safety reg??! Say it ain't so!
My Mustang pfd is legal in Canada. Of course Mustang is a Canadian company.

I am surprised that they did not challenge my life ring.

The Canadian authorities would accept your horseshoe buoy in Canada.
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Old 05-12-2017, 21:21   #1125
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Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA

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No it's not. Re-read the part from your post that I bolded:



Holding James to a higher level of competence is exactly the same as holding John to a lower level. Lodesman correctly responded that such comparative ignorance (on the part of John) would not be relevant in assessing their respective culpabilities in the event of an incident. No different from the commercial ship vs. recreational yacht. You just missed the logic of Lodesman's response, or maybe still haven't figured out the difference between standards & responsibilities under the Colregs. This inability or unwillingness to understand or follow the law would disqualify you from sitting as judge or jury.
You guys are killing me.

I never suggested that anyone was ignorant of any law.

To change the question from:

a) Will the higher trained person be held to a higher expectation of competence?

to...

b) Will ignorance of the law get someone incompetent off the hook?

...are two completely different questions.

Your argument posted in response to question a) is completely irrelevant.

In response to question b) it is, but that isn't the question I originally asked.

Therefore it is a "strawman".

You posted a response to a question that wasn't asked.

If you suggest that because one knew all of the laws in an accident, therefore hey are completely competent, we need to quit debating this right now.
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