Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by beiland

I loved sailing upwind in this boat:
Attachment 137242

I would go out of Annapolis MD on the Chesapeake Bay looking for racing monohulls I could sneak up on and pass to windward.

RunningTideYachts, Ltd. - ArchivesTrimaran Design

Trimaran Design

Ahhhh----caught em at anchor.

[beiland]

I also enjoyed sailing this particular model of the Stiletto catamarans (the 30) to weather,...or any other point of sail. Great day boat.

to weather

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wHRYWT-MeA

Stiletto 30 Catamaran
So when I began to think of alternative boats for Buffett, one of the first ones that popped into my mind was the Stiletto 30. I sailed on a number of these when we had them at our dealership (Chesapeake Catamarans), and at their base down in Sarasota during their 'nationals events'. Kick-up centerboards, kick-up rudders, nice big cockpit area, lounging all over the boat, blister cabins, easily driven under sail or power.

I think this video speaks to the fun on this vessel, ....and the fact that it can be operated by the kids...just another plus.

https://www.youtube....h?v=WnZ04WvRCzQ

(Don't confuse this boat with the 27 foot Stiletto,...this is a whole different boat)

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Barra

At the risk of turning this into yet another mono vs multi debate (please dont!)

I used to sail my 32 foot mono upwind in 20 TWS but only with the boys on board. It was fun, heeled over, feel for the groove, hand steering the seas and gusts etc. Great day out.

When the admiral was on board we had to avoid this as she hated the heeling. Most of her female friends were the same. Of course when coastal cruising this became an issue as it made it pretty hard to get places at times. So we would go to 2 reefs ease the traveller and putt along but stress levels would be elevated to the point where we would avoid sailing to wind in 20 knots if at all possible ie wait it out, change destination etc

Now we have the cat she sits at the cockpit table and is chilled out. Shes even prepared meals in these conditions while I sail close hauled in the same winds and i get to have a blast sailing a performance cat. (NB not all cats will let you do this - the fat hull condos will not be as nice a motion unless you go up quite a few sizes)

Since you brought it up, it really irks me that the cat promoters try to peddle crap like this. Would you believe Barra's vision of his wife happily cooking while going close-hauled into 20 knots on his cat, or would you believe this statement from the crew of an Atlantic 57:

"A little after 7pm on Wednesday I was having a hard time preparing dinner, as water was spilling out of the cooking pot repeatedly extinguishing the stove. We were on a starboard tack with double reefed main and staysail making about 6 knots to weather I asked if we could run off a little while I finished cooking, so Charles and Bert went out again, eased the sheets and took in the staysail a few turns.

Around 1900 the cooking was done, true wind speed was about 18 knots, (apparent 24)..."

[beiland]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Ahhhh----caught em at anchor.

No, all you had to do was carefully point up just a little higher than them, and at a speed that was just a wee-bit more. Climbed right over them.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Since you brought it up, it really irks me that the cat promoters try to peddle crap like this. Would you believe Barra's vision of his wife happily cooking while going close-hauled into 20 knots on his cat,...

Agreed, that is a bunch of crap. (from a long time multihull promoter)

[catsketcher]

My wife prefers upwind sailing to downwind up to about 15 knots. To get south from the northern end of the Great Barrier Reef, say Lizard Island, will usually take some tacking. We really like doing it if we can lay, or almost lay, our course.

With a typical trade wind - solid 20 or so - we can head into it with our staysail and full or maybe a reefed main. I really like the blade-like staysail. The loads are much reduced and I am much calmer. With a reef in the main and the staysail up I feel very happy with the wind up 25-30. Like Ann said, I leave the staysail in a bag at the foot of the inner forestay during the days I need it. If the forecast is for a few days of calmer weather I take it off. I like the security I get from it being there when the wind pipes up.

Just last week I took an experienced friend out on the lake. We sailed back into a 20-22 knot headwind and the boat loved it. He was saying he didn't sail upwind in that wind strength as his boat was unbalanced and hard to sail with a roller furler.

That said, you should look at your boat like a racer. Any extra drag or resistance (heavy solar panel arches, weight in the ends, fuel jugs on the deck, barnacles along the waterline) will knock speed AND height off your windward performance. So our solar panel arch is quite low, I clean the hull religiously, put the heavy things in the middle (anchor chain aft), and keep the decks clean. On the flat water in the lake we were doing 8.5 to 9 knots at 95 degrees between tacks with the tiny staysail and a almost half luffing main. The sails are still pretty good and our cat has daggerboards.

Most yacht races are won by windward ability. Look at what they do and see what you can emulate, flat blade sails, clean bottom, well trimmed and balanced.

Have fun

Phil

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by beiland

I think this video speaks to the fun on this vessel, ....and the fact that it can be operated by the kids...just another plus.

Are you trying to imply a mono can't be sailed by children or only cats are fun?

[Steven UK]

Earlier this year I sailed a smallish charter boat from west end in the bvi to jost van dike very choppy and the wind was dead on the nose where we wanted to go. So for us this was our first taste of rough water and plenty of it came over the bow, plenty of tacking to get where we wanted to go... Loved it.

Not sure I would want to do it for days though.

[caradow]

Absolutely it can be fun.
Use to be a tactician on a Swan 46 and I remember a Bermuda Race when steering up wind in 20 kts was like steering a dingy on Long Island Sound.
The boat is heavy but powerful and handles beautifully in the ocean like no other I have ever sailed. It was etherial.
Also we had a crew of 9 and relatively short times on the helm.
Sailing my 40,000 lb. 50 foot ketch to windward not so much.
Now I have a cat without daggerboards and it is absolutely painful.
However when I turn the corner the Swan would be "left in the dust". And the ride is so smooth.
In my opinion it is really boat dependent.
I really want to sail a large cat with daggerboards to windward in these conditions and see for myself.
Maybe someday.........

[kish]

[QUOTE=Ann T. Cate;2268802]For me, it's fun, for a while. In 20 true, we'd have one reef in the main and be using the staysail.

This may not be a popular opinion, but I think cruisers who have never had their heart in racing mainly motorsail to windward, or just motor. Most don't care about sail shape, either, and this is at least partly due to not having raced and learned what to look for, and how to drive their boat efficiently. IMO, most don't care to spend what it costs to get really good sails. The expense, is stupid, for someone who doesn't care about the results.

Sailing upwind and making a course to weather is called beating. Think punishment.
Beating assuming a 45 degree angle to the true wind, [which is way optimistic for a cruiser (think 60+ degrees)] involves at best travelling twice the distance with ten times the discomfort due to heeling and pounding off of waves. With leeway and wind driven waves, the situation is intolerable to most stomachs and is hard on the rig due to intermittent loading.
Some year ago in an offshore race in a 35 ft racing boat, we had a destination directly to weather some 40 miles away to the North and in 25-30 knot wind and three metre seas we could sail at 6 knots SOG to the north west and then tack to the north east, but the VMG was less than 1 knot in both cases.
So we were travelling heeled over at 6 knots but were flat tacking -- making little progress towards our destination, This would mean 40 hours to cover 40 miles. Retiring was a no-brainer.
Beating is acceptable to inshore racers for a short leg, but unacceptable for longer distances typical of cruising boats in open water.

An axiom of cruising is "Gentlemen don't beat"

All the long distance races including the Vendee Globe Vendée Globe 2016-2017
are designed to be downwind rather than upwind.

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by Souzag818

Yea Paul if it was strong trades you'd have gotten pretty beat up with that crossing, BUT the ride to Honolulu was probably an exciting, wild one!! Hopefully you had a good time... If I had a rough crossing from Oahu, I'd stop in Hale O Lono harbor, on the SW end of the island just to rest. Nothing there, just calm protected water and dust, but welcoming after the crossing. Don't know what's there now...

That was on my first trip to Hawaii. we sailed San Francisco to Lahaina (Maui) and spent about a week there: the Mala Wharf anchorage, a Lahaina Yacht Club mooring, and the Lahaina marina (got a spot next to Maui Jim's big powerboat). We then went to Manele Bay marina on Lanai for a few days (bow anchor in the fairway and stern-tie to the rocks). Then our pit stop on Molokai, then a very nice, fast, sail to The Ala Wai (Oahu) where we were tied three boats deep at the Hawaii Yacht Club dock. After two days we headed to Hanalei Bay (Kaua'i) and spent two weeks at anchor. Then we sailed back to San Francisco. It was a wonderful trip.

[catsketcher]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Would you believe Barra's vision of his wife happily cooking while going close-hauled into 20 knots on his cat, or would you believe this statement from the crew of an Atlantic 57:

(apparent 24)..."

Both are obviously truthful, its just different conditions. In the instance I gave before we can easily cook when going to windward - inside the reef and tacking out to sea to get shelter from the offshore reefs rather than being nearer the coast. Or in smooth conditions with a new wind or a somewhat offshore direction with less than 10 miles of fetch. Then again, I have sailed to windward and been jogged around much more, in say crossing the inshore Whitsunday channel in a full trade wind and run in tide. It depends on the waves and sea conditions. I like the galley down position in a seaway because we move less down lower but you do have to descend into the hulls, take the choice that suits.

I must admit, it is rather dispiriting to see the slings and arrows flung about. We supposedly love the same lifestyle.

[svinvictus2]

Yup....not as problem. It's not as great as 15 or so however it's part of the game.....One big trick.....REEF!

[Barra]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Since you brought it up, it really irks me that the cat promoters try to peddle crap like this. Would you believe Barra's vision of his wife happily cooking while going close-hauled into 20 knots on his cat, or would you believe this statement from the crew of an Atlantic 57:

"A little after 7pm on Wednesday I was having a hard time preparing dinner, as water was spilling out of the cooking pot repeatedly extinguishing the stove. We were on a starboard tack with double reefed main and staysail making about 6 knots to weather I asked if we could run off a little while I finished cooking, so Charles and Bert went out again, eased the sheets and took in the staysail a few turns.

Around 1900 the cooking was done, true wind speed was about 18 knots, (apparent 24)..."

My my we are a bit touchy arent we??? Maybe your mrs is one of the many cruising ladies who if they are honest dont like excessive heeling either?

If you think im peddling crap so be it - all I can do is relate to those with open minds my experience. Believe it or not - no skin off my nose.

It depends on sea state and the boat design of course but it is true that sailing to wind on our cat in 20 knts TWS my wife has prepared meals while in our previous mono she would grimly sit in cockpit and not budge for anything. Its not just her its alot of female cruisers that hate the heel.

Frankly I think your clutching at straws to try and compare a typical days sailing between islands on the one hand with an Atlantic 57 in conditions just before it flipped!

[01kiwijohn]

I live and cruise in your neighborhood. Sailing up wind can be relatively comfortable. Once I quit racing. I have and older, narrow, boat so now I reef early and keep it heeled about 15 degrees or so. Don't over canvass and let the wind vane steer, makes it much easier and I can lay in the cockpit, under the dodger, and watch the world go by.
Good sails, clean bottom, attention to proper sail trim, and a balanced helm all help.
Don't be afraid to try, you'll enjoy it, I promise.