Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

[Don C L]

oops, meant to say "good working jib" although it is always good to do a good job too...

[arsenelupiga]

I like upwind with 2 reefs in main and jib. It is really nice 25 - 40 kn app under ap. L 400 is heavy and punches thru the waves and drive very comfortable even for my wife.

Once waves too big, and feel boat not happy any more, time for alternatives.

[Tessellate]

Hmm, maybe I need to add some specifics.

We have a great time sailing upwind in 5-15. In 17-20 with gusts to 22 it's a different story. We're not over-canvassed - this last time we had a double reefed main and 135 genoa roller reefed to 90, and had 7 knots SOG at 60-70 degrees off true wind direction. So not over-canvassed, but going fast.

The things I worry about in 20 that I don't in 10-15:

- Higher stress on the rig. I worry more about damage, chafe, and shock loading. There seems to be a lot more stress on the rig when upwind in 20 than when downwind in 20.

- The genoa in particular. Everyone knows roller furling sails don't reef well. Yet most cruisers will reef their roller furlers simply because it's much much easier. But when we reef our 135% genoa to about 90%, it's pretty baggy. I move the sheet leads all the way forward in the track, but maybe that's not enough.

Then what happens if I'm not super careful with helming, we get what I'd call a luff and fill - you luff up a couple degrees too much, then a gust to 22 comes or you steer back down 5 degrees, and *boom*, the genoa fills with a loud smack. I don't like this. Is it normal to have an occasional luff and fill when upwind in 20 or is there something you do to avoid it? Autopilot wouldn't avoid it, we're also steering to waves.

- Our hank-on staysail on the solent stay works better than a reefed genoa for upwind in 20-25, but it's a ton more work to rig. Tough to justify when you're only sailing upwind 8 miles. I feel like I shouldn't have to use a staysail for 17-20 with gusts to 22 though. Am I wrong?

- Difficulty pointing. In 5-15 kts we can sail to 40-45 degrees, but in 20 kts that goes to 60-70 degrees. Partly due to wave action slowing the boat. But I assume wave action is a given in 20 (we always have some current).

- Racers sail to windward in 20 pretty often. Are crappy old sails the explanation for cruisers not doing so, or is it more about crew (a 40' race boat typically has 4-8, a cruising boat might have 2)?

- A new genoa is expensive. If that's the fix, well, so be it (I'll start saving), but if not it's an expensive mistake to make. I've heard it said that *no* sails roller reef well. So how do I know a brand new genoa reefed to 90% would help?

Basically it's sounding like it all comes down to the foresail. Most cruisers have a roller furling genoa. So any solution seems like it must involve working with that.

[Don C L]

Well I am in the minority but I prefer my hank-on headsails. I know roller furling is sinfully convenient, but they do have a few things working against them when it comes to performance esp. upwind. I have heard of roller furling reefing reasonably well for upwind, but I have never sailed with the more modern designs. The older ones, yes, and they were not so great. And then if the sail is older, blown out, then it's really not going to perform well. One thing, furling headsails have clews cut high to furl well, but that lets so much air below the headsail it loses a lot of upwind performance that way too. Still I think you should do a little better than 60 or 70 degrees. Not sure what you are referring to with the luff and fill. How old is the genoa?

As far as strain on the rigging, 20-25 knots should not be over-stressing anything. If it is, something needs to be beefed up.
I also have never sailed on a Landfall 38, what is normal for that boat? The keel seems it might be a bit shallow for better upwind sailing also.

[thinwater]

Love it. Honestly, she doesn't feel alive until boat climbs over 8 knots.

In fact, a beam sea is far more uncomfortable; I sometimes sail a V just to avoid it.

[JPA Cate]

Tesselate, you need to have a chat to the sailmaker. Your staysail could be stowed on the foredeck, ready to go, and if the boat is happy with that sail, maybe the one reef in the main plus the staysail would keep her on her feet. The 130% rolled in to 90% will not be having good airflow over it. If it's an old baggy cross cut sail, it will be quite inefficient, furled.

I do not personally know the sailing characteristics of your boat, but generally, the right sail choices give the boat the opportunity to perform to her best. Sometimes, you might want to slow down a bit to make the motion more comfortable. You might consider a furler for your staysail as well as the genoa. When you get new ones, you might consider triradial cut for them both, and you might want to consider some of the more expensive fabrics. Find yourself a sailmaker who will take the time to educate you about what is possible. Then pick a compromise that suits how you use or hope to use, the boat.

Ann

[chuckr]

I think we did it when we crossed the Atlantic in our Jeanneau DS40 -- we had 48 hours of 30-35k winds and the were a bit big - we reefed our inmast main down to a handkerchief and our jib the same - balanced the boat out very nicely and while we could have put our more sail and a lot more speed but also a lot more pounding - we opted for 5-5.5k and a lot less pound - good for crew and boat -

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by chuckr

I think we did it when we crossed the Atlantic in our Jeanneau DS40 -- we had 48 hours of 30-35k winds and the were a bit big - we reefed our inmast main down to a handkerchief and our jib the same - balanced the boat out very nicely and while we could have put our more sail and a lot more speed but also a lot more pounding - we opted for 5-5.5k and a lot less pound - good for crew and boat -

Yea, we all do it when we have to, but the OP asked if it was fun .

[olianta]

Upwind in 20kn true in my light displacement boat Luffe 37 double handed is not enjoynment but endurance. Of course this means double reefed mainsail and partially furled self taking jib both hauled in. We usually sail the boat by the waves, not by the wind, trying to avoid slamming as much as possible, therefore one of the tacks is more favorable. 25+ degrees heel and bouncing makes life on board miserable. We were doing this for the first 4 consecutive days during this year passage from Martinique to
Lisbon in the east-northeast head winds. If it is coastal sailing for a few hours it could be an enjoyment in terms of effective sailing, not comfort.

[Dave_S]

Correct me if I'm saying something stupid here.

When everyone talks about to windward are we talking about 45 - 60 degrees to apparent and tacking. Because that's by far the most enjoyable for me, when the boats fast and not stressed.

I find anything down wind a bit ho hum, I'm probably doing something wrong.

We did spend a day in quite ruff conditions and made 30km in 8hrs that was smashing in to it all day. That you can have to yourself.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Ann T. Cate has nailed some of the big bits of this equation, for certain. And if you guys want, I can spell out a few more. Later perhaps. But...

Some of the best sailing of my life has been going uphill when it’s blowing 20s. A decent portion of it being a nice ride is being on a boat of breeding, ditto having her setup properly for it, along with a reasonable swell period, & or course, good helming. Though the latter bits mean more than the first one. Get them right, & it’ll be some of the sweetest sailing you’ll ever do. And it beats light airs of 5kts or less by 20:1.

Edit: A favorite old reference (that I need to dust off myself) is Sail & Rig Tuning by Ivar Dedekam. It has good, easy to understand information on this stuff, along with some great illustrations to go with same. https://www.amazon.com/Sail-Rig-Tuni...ig+tuning+ivar

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Ann T. Cate has nailed some of the big bits of this equation, for certain. And if you guys want, I can spell out a few more. Later perhaps. But...

Some of the best sailing of my life has been going uphill when it’s blowing 20s. A decent portion of it being a nice ride is being on a boat of breeding, ditto having her setup properly for it, along with a reasonable swell period, & or course, good helming. Though the latter bits mean more than the first.Get them right, & it’ll be some of the sweetest sailing you’ll ever do.And it beats light airs of 5kts or less by 20:1.

Edit: A favorite old reference (that I need to dust off myself) is Sail & Rig Tuning by Ivar Dedekam. It has good, easy to understand information on this stuff, along with some great illustrations to go with same. https://www.amazon.com/Sail-Rig-Tuni...ig+tuning+ivar

Thank you for the kind words, UNCIVILIZED, but really, the OP, based on his questions, should seek out at least one independent sailmaker and get himself a quick course (as it were) in what is possible relative to his particular boat. A major loft, like North, will steer him towards particular products, but a small sailmaker, who needs return business, will be motivated to sell him what will work best for his boat. A benefit to both the OP and the sailmaker, but remember, guys, "The laborer is worthy of his hire!" And a smile, and if you're so inclined, coffee and cookies, too.

Ann

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Thank you for the kind words, UNCIVILIZED, but really, the OP, based on his questions, should seek out at least one independent sailmaker and get himself a quick course (as it were) in what is possible relative to his particular boat. A major loft, like North, will steer him towards particular products, but a small sailmaker, who needs return business, will be motivated to sell him what will work best for his boat. A benefit to both the OP and the sailmaker, but remember, guys, "The laborer is worthy of his hire!" And a smile, and if you're so inclined, coffee and cookies, too.

Ann

Ann, I don't at all disagree, especially as a really good performance tool for any boat, is her sail selection chart. Which denotes which combination(s) work best for conditions X, or Y. With a good sailmaker assisting you to create such a chart, & to fill the big gaps in it, for the least $. Meaning, to round out a boat's "sail quiver".
And, yes, "boutique" sail lofts of quality rock! Just don't use mine. Long lead times suck!

The tips which I was hinting at sharing about upwind performance, are things which not everyone knows. Or perhaps knows of, but doesn't consider important (yet). Due to not knowing the depth of their significance. And thus such things are worth learning. Much as you & I did, ages ago, from racing (mostly).

[Scottuk]

I think fun is influenced by the length of time going to windward. Most long term cruisers would not be long term cruisers if most of their sailing were to windward. It is just too exhausting.

For me, all things being equal the biggest variables are wave height and period. At the opposite ends of the spectrum I typically employee different strategies although both require constant concentration at the helm for maximum performance.

First, like most people, I try to get the sails as flat as possible. In heavier winds I prefer the sails to be trimmed to have as neutral helm as possible. I don't like weather helm because of the propensity to round up though in lighter conditions I prefer a little weather helm just for feel. I typically try to get the boom centred and the traveller as close to centre as I can. My ultimate goal is to sail off the back edge of the main.

In short period steep waves I steer a short inverted and truncated question mark type of curve in order to maintain speed to get through the wave. So its punch through the wave, fall off a bit to gain speed and surf. Then just before the next wave head up and repeat. Again it takes feel and concentration.

At the other end of the spectrum I will try to pinch to where I will slow the boat down slightly and sail flatter. In the right conditions I have found by pointing higher and having less leeway I end up going faster to my destination. Again this takes concentration and what I usually do then is focus at maintaining a constant speed and ensuring the headsail doesn't collapse with the emphases being on the headsail. Depending on the wave size I am coming into, I sometimes fall off to get a higher speed to get through the wave. But I will head up just before the wave and then fall off to get to my target speed and then start to pinch while maintaining that speed.

When tacking I slow down the turn through the wind. This is to give more time to get the sail in on the other side. This saves time in the end because you spend more time pointing higher towards the destination and when the tack is completed the sail should already be trimmed or nearly so.

This has been my experience others will likely have different views.

[boatman61]

Sailing to windward in 20kts can be/is great fun.. when day sailing, coastal long w/end trips.. but 4,000nm across an ocean of it tends to take the shine off a bit..