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Old 01-06-2017, 03:24   #16
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Re: Broad Reaching vs Sailing Wing on Wing

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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
So what happens if you use the Genoa and the Yankee as twin head sails without the main DDW? Appreciate the pole is out of action so you might need to use the blade instead.

Is the blade more stable and less likely to collapse DDW +-25 deg because it's a tall skinny sail perhaps?

Pete
I don't have a genoa -- I could put up both blade and yankee for a twizzle rig. But I don't think I would do that for this kind of sailing, where I might only have a few miles DDW before I have to go to another point of sail. Striking and hoisting sails on my boat is a major operation requiring at least three people. I'm single handed at the moment. Furthermore, twizzle doesn't work without a special pole. Because normal triangular headsails don't tolerate any sailing by the lee without a pole of some kind.
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Old 01-06-2017, 04:56   #17
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Re: Broad Reaching vs Sailing Wing on Wing

Good to see you solo sailing the bottom off that boat! Thanks for taking the time to post. It's a bit of a head scratcher that you can get 20 degrees to the Lee out of your Yankee when W&W.. Mine will collapse at more than 10 degrees.
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Old 01-06-2017, 05:14   #18
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Re: Broad Reaching vs Sailing Wing on Wing

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Good to see you solo sailing the bottom off that boat! Thanks for taking the time to post. It's a bit of a head scratcher that you can get 20 degrees to the Lee out of your Yankee when W&W.. Mine will collapse at more than 10 degrees.
No, I can't, without a pole! Only the preventered out main.
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Old 01-06-2017, 08:25   #19
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Re: Broad Reaching vs Sailing Wing on Wing

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Yes, I think everyone sails the main slightly by the lee when going wing on wing, don't they? Since the unpoled headsail won't tolerate even one degree of it? Might be worth trying going further in that direction. Despite aft -swept spreaders, my main seems to work ok up to about 20 degrees by the lee.
We always poled the headsail allowing for a little drift on the windvane steering either direction. I don't think we could get to 20 degrees by the lee without the main popping against the preventer. We are boatless right now so I can't check!
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Old 01-06-2017, 09:16   #20
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Re: Broad Reaching vs Sailing Wing on Wing

Add to all of that, the fact sailing DDW is much more comfortble in waves. And I really wanna try use the boom as a second pole for a twin genoa set up
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Old 01-06-2017, 09:27   #21
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Re: Broad Reaching vs Sailing Wing on Wing

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... How can a preventer rigged to midship cleat prevent a jibe? Won't the main force vector be DOWN? I rig mine to bow cleats, although this is a PITA and requires long lines....

Remember, I have a cat with swept back shrouds. That means a lot of beam and that the midships cleat is forward of the boom end. I said this was specific to my boat.

I actually don't think the preventer needs to be all that strong....

I can only say that I have broken a 3/8-inch preventer line. It was quite old and the sail was backed in a moderate breeze. The real issue is stretch, if the line is led to the bow. The line will be over 60 feet long, and if the boom is swept back, only a few feet of stretch are required to jibe. This is ONLY a risk if the boom is swept back.

And as Carlo said, DDW is much more comfortable. That matters when you're tired of rolling. The last time I switched to DDW on a long passage, it was in part because I had a considerable bit splicing and sewing I wanted to do. My cat rides like it's at anchor DDW, making it easy and relaxing to get the work down. When finished, I returned to the helm, jibed the main over, and took off like a rocket.
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Old 01-06-2017, 09:31   #22
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Re: Broad Reaching vs Sailing Wing on Wing

Polar diagrams as we know them do not assume poling out the fore sail as a rule. Ones that do, clearly mark it. These look different. Normal polars assume the fore sail will get blanketed out at a point (mostly past about 150 AWA).

If you think of the low point @ 150AWA vs a DD180 and you pole the sail out at 180, then your vmg is likely better at 180.

If you sail to broadly, the benefit is lost - look at cos function once and we know why.

Off course, at 180 AWA, your boat speed deducts the largest % portion of the true wind hence at 180 AWA any tub should sail its slowest. Unless we pole it out, hoist a kite or cheat in any other way.

I hate DD in open ocean waters as most older boats will roll then both ways. I love DD on lakes and smaller seas like the Baltic. Being in the bigger boat helps heaps. They simply roll less, later, and at a slower rate.

I also like DD in modern fast and flat aft boats like Pogos, Class 40 or something like a Beneteau Sense. These are the perfect downwind toys. Ours is not. ;-(

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Old 01-06-2017, 12:59   #23
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Re: Broad Reaching vs Sailing Wing on Wing

With nothing to contribute to the actual topic but just out of curiosity - whereabouts in Finland will you be sailing this summer, Dockhead?
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Old 01-06-2017, 23:33   #24
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Re: Broad Reaching vs Sailing Wing on Wing

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With nothing to contribute to the actual topic but just out of curiosity - whereabouts in Finland will you be sailing this summer, Dockhead?
The whole South Coast, and Estonia, too! Most beautiful cruising grounds I've ever seen.
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Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
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