Anchoring Technique with Old-Fashioned Anchors

[sabray]

Originally Posted by marujo.sortudo

The sale went through, so here's the boat if you're curious:

Page Traditional Boats :: MIMI ROSE

well done. In another life years ago I was on Mimi Rose. Neat boat what a heart.
I also served as an apprentice at Swift Custom boats (didn't work on Mimi Rose). I'm sure you know Swift custom boats was a one boat at a time custom shop. Swifty usually felled the trees air dried the wood and built 1 high quality traditional boat a year. I think Bill Page may have brought in his own wood for Mimi Rose.
Brought back a lot of good memories. Everything on these boats was custom. I remember making drawer pulls like the ones on your boat and those really practical cabin door latch's. I think Swifty didn't do the interior on yours but a lot of the details were the same ones we put into other boats. My arm is still sore from the counless hours of hand peining copper rivets.
Enjoy

[marujo.sortudo]

MichaelC, Thanks & will do. I have been very lucky in this life so far.

sabray, You are correct in thinking that Swifty didn't do the interior on this boat, as Bill wanted to finish her himself. Actually, Bill helped Swifty start his shop by hiring him for hull #1, Bill's first boat, Sandpiper. Mimi is Swifty's hull #4. I've helped hand pein some copper rivets in my time, too. When I was just a kid back in the 80's, my dad built an Atkin "Vintage" 10' lapstrake sailing dinghy (sprit rig) which I still have. In fact, I'll be towing her as a tender when I go south down the ditch this upcoming fall. She's a great little boat, too.

Cheers, Colin

[btrayfors]

She's a gorgeous boat. Very lucky guy.

Many years ago I carried a 100lb yachtsman (Paul Luke) on my 35' gaff-rigged ketch, plus a couple of Danforths for the Chesapeake cruising grounds. The Danforths rule here, but I remember once in Back Creek, Annapolis, I couldn't get a proper set with the Danforths due to the heavy weed which was once there.

In that event, the 100lb yachtsman was wonderful.

In general, yachtsman anchors need to be heavier than other types for the same holding power, but they do hold well in rock, sand, thick mud, grass, etc. Don't throw the 75lb-er away...it's a keeper, IMHO.

Don't have any direct experience with the Nordhills, but have never considered them worth much compared to other alternatives. In your stead, I think I'd invest in a Fortress FX-22 for holding in mud/sand. These can be easily disassembled and stored in the bilge, and are top performers in terms of holding power.

Otherwise, I believe you're in good shape as is....at least for the time being.

Good luck with the new boat. I'll look for you up there next summer.

Bill

[Bash]

Originally Posted by marujo.sortudo

Herreshoff's opinions fly in the face of current conventional wisdom about anchors. I presume the patent anchors he's refering to are Danforths, etc. Anyone know?

The term "patent anchor" is a bit archaic, but it originally referred to any type of stockless anchor, such as the Danforth.

[Mule]

My friend, yhou were obviously a very, very good boy in your last life. Only with such karma accrued could you wind up with that spectacular boat!!!

Ditto... When I look at her, I compare to a young beautiful trophy wife=girlfirend=mistress. I would kindda like to have one. At past 60 not sure if I could run her properly but damn, what a rush. Sure make me look good standing on deck though.

[Squeaks]

She's drop-dead beautiful, perfect lines! They don't do tumblehome like that in 'glass :-). Your sailing dink sounds like a little jem too. Good karma indeed. Congratulations.

[marujo.sortudo]

Thanks all! I was talking to Bill--the builder--the other day about the anchors. Apparently, many of the old salts up here are quite happy with a yachtsman anchor, a SHORT length of chain (7' in my case) and the rest as nylon rode with a float to keep it off the bottom. He's taken her down to the Bahamas twice with zero problems. While the extra weight of the yachtsman type is significant, the ability to avoid a long chain rode and anchor with less scope (Herreshoff recommends 4:1) is substantial. The weight savings in the bow area could make the boat more seaworthy or allow you to pack more gear forward. I'm really looking forward to getting some experience with this ground tackle. I do like the idea of a Fortress FX-22 in the bilge for those soft mud anchorages, though.

[NormanMartin]

Stunningly beautiful boat. I have seen her in Maine, I think. One doesn't forget such beauty. Even prettier than our Averisera... but only by a little.

I grew up with big yachtsman anchors. We had a 48 ft Alden gaff yawl (1921, Wiscassett) from 1958-1963 and sailed her from Cape Cod to the Florida and the Bahamas and back a couple times. As oldest child, I catted that damn yachtsman anchor a thousand times and cursed it every time.

They work just fine. Always, always, always use a pennant with float so you can pull the blasted thing out backwards.

Eventually, we got a 35 lb CQR and I fell in love with that hunk of iron.

Otherwise, I have no strong opinions on the subject. Enjoy your cruise.

[stoomy]

Hi all,
I'm posting to a 7 year-old thread wondering how things are going with the "old school" anchors.

I have a 75# 3piece PE Luke yachtsman anchor which I have never used. I was thinking about listing it on Craigslist.....but some of the things I'm reading on this thread are making me think again.

My primary anchor is a 44# Rocna. There are only two situations In Which I imagine myself pulling out and assembling the 75# Luke.

1) all of my other anchors have failed.
2) the Rocna has an attachment point for a secondary anchor. If I was expecting a major blow over a rocky bottom, I might hook the Luke to the Rocna. If the bottom was sandy or mud, I'd attach a Fortress to the Rocna.

I own an OC40 which tips the scales at about 13 tons.

And I'd like to put in a plug for Cap'n Fatty Goodlander's book, Creative Anchoring.

[JPA Cate]

Welcome aboard CF, stoomy.

Thank you for reviving this thread. The Mimi Rose is truly a boat of great beauty, and it really pleased me to see her and read all the positive comments about her.

The Wooden Boat Festival in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia will be on next February (2017), and if you love timber boats, there's a whole lot of eye candy going to be there.

Ann

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by stoomy

Hi all,
I have a 75# 3piece PE Luke yachtsman anchor which I have never used. I was thinking about listing it on Craigslist.....but some of the things I'm reading on this thread are making me think again.

If you are selling the Luke, I'd be interested in buying it as a storm anchor.

I've read the books and all the threads, and in my experience there is no substitute for a heavy anchor and all chain. My 20 kilogram Simpson Lawrence and 70 feet of 5/8" chain (in 10 ft of water) held in 60 knot winds earlier this Summer. My Bristol 38.8 weighs about 19,000 lbs empty. But if I had to do it over again I would have assembled the Luke and put it out as a second anchor. I was in a spot (near Morehead City, NC) where dragging would have been very, very bad news.

[noelex 77]

The question is an old one, but still relevant. I think in many ways the anchoring tactics would need to be quite different from those boats using modern anchors and a powerful electric windlass.

Yachtsman/Fisherman style anchors are very different to modern anchors, but in many ways still good anchors. They have great performance in weed. Their nemesis is soft substrates. The fluke area is small and the anchor cannot bury well.

The other important factor is they need to be very large to work. Anchors were much heavier when Fisherman anchors were popular. A large crew of tough men was expected.

Normally I am in favour of using your largest "storm" anchor on a general basis. I have been caught many times in very strong wind when none was expected and with an electric anchor winch it seems silly not to have the extra insurance, as well as the ability to anchor at shorter scopes and all the other advantages using a large anchor brings. However, anyone in the Op's position with Fisherman anchors and (I assume) no electric anchor winch I think the strategy will have to be different.

I suspect he has probably figured out what to do for himself by now, but for anyone in the OP's position I would suggest normally using the 42lb anchor in mild/moderate conditions. In anything more than moderate conditions or with a softer substrate you will have to wrestle with the 75lb anchor. Keep in mind it is very hard to do anything once really really bad weather has hit so you will need to anticipate as best you can. People talk casually about deploying another anchor in strong wind without realising that just getting to foredeck and hanging on so you are not thrown overboard is a major effort. So you will need to keep a careful eye on the weather and make sure you don't do anything to anger Neptune .

The other factor to consider is the small amount of chain. The holding with rope rode is almost as good as chain, especially if you have an anchor that sets reliably, but there is much lower abrasion resistance. You will need to be careful if there is any risk of debris or rocks. You will swing quite differently to boats on all chain rode. I am not a great fan of using two anchors, but when on rope rode surrounded by boats on chain sometimes two anchors can be deployed with careful placement to produce a swing pattern that is less likely to conflict with those boats using chain. In addition, the two anchors give you some insurance if the rope rode is abraded and minimise the consequences if the exposed fluke of the Fisherman is caught in a wind shift, although the risk is small. It is a pain to have to deploy two anchors, but it will be needed on occasion.

It would be interesting to get more feedback from people using these anchors.

[stoomy]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

?........Keep in mind it is very hard to do anything once really really bad weather has hit so you will need to anticipate as best you can. People talk casually about deploying another anchor in strong wind without realising that just getting to foredeck and hanging on so you are not thrown overboard is a major effort. So you will need to keep a careful eye on the weather and make sure you don't do anything to anger Neptune .

I whole-heartedly agree that assembling and deploying a big anchor like the 75# Luke in heavy seas is intimidating and possibly dangerous. I removed this anchor from the boat and assembled it on dry land after my last haul out. .....which reminds me, I need to hit the gym now

[charliehows]

I've never bought an anchor - always just used the ones my boats came with. I do recall an incident 35 years ago when my danforth picked up a rock and started dragging - for a while i fantasized about buying a fancy new CQR but i settled for an anchor train of the 2 danforths i had aboard - she never dragged again so i got over it. Now i listen to people almost universally dismiss CQR anchors in favour of the bewildering array of new gen anchors - maybe i'll try one if i get another boat that has one, but my CQRs have never let me down and i've got a danforth for kedging and emergencies and i know how to use it too.
Thats a mighty fine looking boat - i guess those old anchors must have kept her afloat for awhile. Unfortunately a bit of knowledge gets lost with the passing of time and new fashions arent always as good as they're made out to be.

[marujo.sortudo]

Well, it's been almost seven years since I bought Mimi Rose. I never did change the anchoring setup, other than a minor improvement to the rope/chain splice and regalvanizing everything because I liked it all so much. In fact, if I ever come across another Wilcox & Crittenden pattern yachtsman anchor at a reasonable price, I'm liable to snap it up. I'll tell you why.

We've anchored a few hundred times in every kind of bottom that exists from St. Marys, Georgia to Roque Island, Maine. I can only recall one place our anchors would drag (reputedly foul,) except for the couple of times we fouled the upward fluke, which was primarily due to inexperience. When we went south to allegedly soft mud like Block I, the Chesapeake, etc., we carried a Fortress, but never needed it nor the 75# W&C. The only anchor that has dragged on us repeatedly is the 15# Northill, but what would you expect from a 15-pounder anyway? We use it as a comfort anchor (position us bow to the swell at offshore anchorages,) or as a last resort brake if everything else has gone wrong (only needed it this way once.)

We've been lucky enough in our weather routing that we never subjected our anchors to more than Force 7, barring squalls and hurricane Sandy weathered on a mooring (with anchor besides.) That said, we've kedged off with the 35# half a dozen times down south and never had it fail to set immediately and drag us off of mud, sand, or gravel. Likewise, we've sailed onto our anchor many times and felt it set fast and hard, or motored back onto it with the same effect. The ability of these anchors to set and hold 99% of the time in just about any bottom is impressive.

I've ended up liking the nylon a lot, too. It makes anchor handling very easy. This makes sailing on and off the anchor a real joy and easy enough in most places up here even single-handed. If we expect to be somewhere a long time, there's a good bit of current, a crowded anchorage, or half a dozen other reasons, we deploy a Bahamian moor. We can often adjust our rode lengths to match the swinging of folks on all chain somewhat, but we swing differently than modern underbody, high freeboard boats anyway. Getting up both our anchors when Bahamian moored seems a roughly equivalent amount of physical work to hauling up one all-chain anchor on a manual windlass. Hauling up just our 42# is quite easy, and frequently we don't even use the capstan. Of course, much of this is due to Mimi Rose's great system of catting the anchors to the bowsprit. For a boat that lacks a convenient method of deploying and retrieving these anchors, the story may well be different.

Also, it turns out that Don Street used a very similar anchor setup for many, many years on Iolaire while opening up the Caribbean. All with a 50# W&C yachtsman bower which he found equally reliable. I did find an article by him once that mentioned losing the W&C at some point and having to replace it with a Luke which he found to not be its equal. Having examined both, I notice that the flukes are much sharper on the W&C's and that perhaps with some weight distribution could account for his experience. I have no experience with the Luke myself to offer, though. I can highly recommend Don Street's Ocean Sailing Yacht Volumes 1 & 2. A gold-mine of good info, containing some relevant advice on anchoring, IIRC.

As to your question stoomy, I'd keep the anchor. I'd choose the Luke over the Rocna in heavy weed or rock any day. Rocnas sometimes clog with weed and weight is far more important than fluke area in rock and weed. As far as deploying it in lively conditions, remember that storm anchors are often deployed in the calm before the storm. Doing drills and figuring out a way to easily deploy it in weather would be good, though. With clever rigging an anchor could be deployed from a variety of places.