Anchoring etiquette

[crankysailor]

So true story from earlier today. I arrive to a busy anchorage I know well and I immediately spotted a free corner.. I head in and even before I get to the spot a guy starts yelling at me letting me know where his anchor is. Ok.. fine.. thanks for the info, I am sure it will be fine.. . Then he yells.. I HAVE 50 METERS OUT!!



I think I heard him wrong.. FIFTY.. FIVE.. ZERO!!??.. maybe he meant fifteen.. nope.. FIFTY he confirms. Oh boy.

It is an extremely well protected full anchorage. It is 10 knots maybe gusting 20. Perfect sand holding and five meters deep.. yes.. FIVE :-)

I roll my eyes and head in just a bit farther, throw the anchor.. left about 25m out. I dove it.. his anchor is nowhere in sight so all is well.. ok.. still I am just left with this feeling. Am I in the wrong here for expecting folks to think about others and not demand everyone stays away from them on a 50m radius in a busy place when it is not even that windy? what do you tell a person like that?

*seufz*

[Naughty Cat]

Others will know better but I always understand that first come first served is the golden rule, and you can't knowingly foul another boat's anchor, so there is scope for a reasonable conversation but the chance of a result is slim. So you did the right thing.

I always hope that having a reasonable conversation could mean they are more considerate in the future but in my experience, when it comes to anchoring, people get very set in their ways, especially when it comes to scope. You can never have too much, so trying to explain to someone that in your opinion they do is an uphill struggle.

The bigger problem would seem to be swinging. That guy risks swinging into everyone. What is the etiquette then? As I understand it you are supposed to give him swing room as well. On that basis, best avoided.

Was he solo by any chance?

[Mike OReilly]

I know there is this mythical, 'in a perfect world' idea that the first one in the anchorage gets to rule the roost. But in a busy anchorage, with people coming and going, it's pretty damn hard to say who is first, and therefore who gets to set the pattern. This is why I think standard anchoring technique is as important as "first in" etiquette.

At 5m deep, 50m is 10:1 (discounting bow height). That is unnecessary in almost any situation, and certainly unreasonable when others are anchoring in the same area. I would inform the person, in as friendly a way as possible, they've got out way too much rode. If I could not easily go elsewhere, I'd ask him to haul in some to make room for others.

Of course, if that doesn't work you really have no choice but to go somewhere else. But maybe this will make this person at least consider what they are doing.

[JPA Cate]

Cranky Sailor,

We'd go elsewhere. It really doesn't matter why he's got so much rode out. It IS rude, but he was there first, and in a 180 degree windshift, his swinging circle will intersect yours. That is why you leave, because there can be bumps in the night, and those are always unpleasant to deal with. Furthermore, since the precedent exists already, if there were a suit for damages, you'd lose. Also, if he were skipper of a monohull, your vessel and his will lie differently overnight. If you want to swing together, as it were, anchor with similar vessels for windage and grip on the water.

Ann

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

We'd go elsewhere.

Obviously this is the correct answer.

Still, it's not always that simple. Good anchorages around here aren't all that common. And a fair number of those are filled up with unused "destination" moorings or lobster buoys. You don't always have a lot of choice.

We try to plan ahead, to avoid getting stuck looking for our second or third choice anchorage after dark, if our fist pick is full. But plans can go awry.

I agree it is inconsiderate to have 10:1 scope out in a popular anchorage. It's hard to have a polite conversation, shouting boat-to-boat. I suppose if you could, it would go something like "Anyway you can make room for me? I don't think I'll make the next anchorage by nightfall. I only need 30 meters of scope."

[MicHughV]

This is a topic of conversation that I'm sure many of us have had. I can certainly relate. It's a royal pain in the rear end no question about it.

I've had an instance, where I had little choice and had to stand anchor watch the whole night, because as sure as damnit, I had to fend off the other boat during the middle of the night. Nobody was dragging anchor, but the difference in scope lenght was a big problem. Choice words were flung like cannonballs as there was little to be done but for the other chap to shorten scope, as I was not willing to try and reset my anchor in the middle of the night.

Ah, the joys of cruising. Fortunately these instances are far and few between.

[wingssail]

We absolutely hate the shouting that occurs when someone (not ourselves) get territorial about their anchoring space and we won't get into it.

If some other guy starts hollering and I think there is enough space I'll launch the dingy and go over there and try to talk, or I'll hold up my handheld radio and maybe I can get him on the radio, though I don't like that public discourse much because it WILL be public. If it looks like he might be right, I'll move, no discussion.

In any case I try to be reasonable even if he is not. In the end I may move, if that is practical, and we have done so, recently. If he does not get reasonable, and I really think we will not have a problem, I'll listen for a while then say, "Well, I think we'll be fine, but I'll watch it" then end the conversation. I had a case where a guy stood on his bow and yelled off and on for a couple of hours. He was wrong and I knew it, so I just ignored him. He started off on another rant when we started our engine and he was subjected to our diesel smoke. Sorry bud, but by now I'm tired of your yelling so this is what you get.

And if a guy comes and anchors too close to me, I will go to him, in my dingy, and say (after smiling and introducing myself), "You look kind'a close, do you think it is OK?" I've had some move at that point. If he doesn't want to consider it, we'll move. it isn't worth the aggravation, even if we were there first.

[ChrisJHC]

Originally Posted by wingssail

And if a guy comes and anchors too close to me, I will go to him, in my dingy, and say (after smiling and introducing myself), "You look kind'a close, do you think it is OK?" I've had some move at that point. If he doesn't want to consider it, we'll move. it isn't worth the aggravation, even if we were there first.

I remember someone else on this forum saying that they do this and then hand over a card with their insurance details on the back along with saying that it’s so they know who to contact if they bump in the night.

[letsgetsailing3]

Seriously, 50 meters is a half a football field.


10:1 scope seems excessive under these conditions.



But if you can't work it out, it could be a long night.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wingssail

We absolutely hate the shouting that occurs when someone (not ourselves) get territorial about their anchoring space and we won't get into it.

If some other guy starts hollering and I think there is enough space I'll launch the dingy and go over there and try to talk, or I'll hold up my handheld radio and maybe I can get him on the radio, though I don't like that public discourse much because it WILL be public. If it looks like he might be right, I'll move, no discussion.

In any case I try to be reasonable even if he is not. In the end I may move, if that is practical, and we have done so, recently. If he does not get reasonable, and I really think we will not have a problem, I'll listen for a while then say, "Well, I think we'll be fine, but I'll watch it" then end the conversation. I had a case where a guy stood on his bow and yelled off and on for a couple of hours. He was wrong and I knew it, so I just ignored him. He started off on another rant when we started our engine and he was subjected to our diesel smoke. Sorry bud, but by now I'm tired of your yelling so this is what you get.

And if a guy comes and anchors too close to me, I will go to him, in my dingy, and say (after smiling and introducing myself), "You look kind'a close, do you think it is OK?" I've had some move at that point. If he doesn't want to consider it, we'll move. it isn't worth the aggravation, even if we were there first.

I agree entirely.


One reason why I love cruising the Baltic is you almost never share an anchorage with anyone.


The "fetish for scope", which is not even good anchoring practice, greatly complicates anchoring in crowded anchorages.


Engaging with and talking to the angry, territorial person often solves this problem, however, and sometimes even leads to some adventures.


One old story of mine on this topic here: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ain-86277.html

[El Pinguino]

A story from the last century.
Refuge Cove, Wilsons Prom, Straya. Pull in there mid arvo. Biggish boat owned by a known wanker is already there. Owner advising all and sundry upon their arrival that he had 70 metres or so of chain out. Plenty of room elsewhere so people just anchor a bit away from KW.
Late in the day a fishing boat turns up, KW does his thing. Fishing boat stops just ahead of him and drops a heap of chain - crew retires below.
Within 15 minutes KW has weighed anchor and retreated to the NW arm which is renowned for being very rolly and which he has all to himself.

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I agree entirely.


One old story of mine on this topic here: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ain-86277.html

"My father started mixing martinis and I felt a sense of relief and relaxation spread over me after the difficult day, but just at that moment an angry person appeared in the cockpit of a tiny, battered, ancient Beneteau First next to us, wearing a blue ensign."


This guy yesterday was also on a Beneteau First

[Bobby Lex]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

This is why I think standard anchoring technique is as important as "first in" etiquette.

10:1 (discounting bow height)...is unnecessary in almost any situation, and certainly unreasonable when others are anchoring in the same area.

The problem as I see it, is that we are being asked to render an opinion without all the facts. 10:1 is usually overkill. But that really depends on what kind of anchor you have, and how good the holding is, and whether you are using an all-chain rode, and whether a hard blow is forecast, etc.

I'm not defending the other guy. And I do think that the proper approach would be (as has been suggested several times) to start a dialogue with the guy to find out his reasons for thinking he needs so much scope, and to see if some understanding can be reached. It is possible that there is some fact that the OP isn't aware of that justifies the other guy's decision to use so much scope.

Bob

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bobby Lex

The problem as I see it, is that we are being asked to render an opinion without all the facts. 10:1 is usually overkill. But that really depends on what kind of anchor you have, and how good the holding is, and whether you are using an all-chain rode, and whether a hard blow is forecast, etc.

I'm not defending the other guy. And I do think that the proper approach would be (as has been suggested several times) to start a dialogue with the guy to find out his reasons for thinking he needs so much scope, and to see if some understanding can be reached. It is possible that there is some fact that the OP isn't aware of that justifies the other guy's decision to use so much scope.

Bob

The OP said it was calm and good holding.

10:1 is always overkill. The curve of diminishing returns falls right off after about 7:1. You should never use more than about 5:1 in a crowded anchorage except in really unusual circumstances. We often go with 3:1 in deep water (15 meters or more), to limit swinging. I've been through storms on a little more than 2:1, in really deep water (42 meters, in Greenland).

Excessive scope is almost always the result of unskillful people trying to make up for problems with their technique, or trying to make up for a really bad anchor. If your anchor sucks, the answer to that is to upgrade it, not to terrorize every anchorage you drop the hook in.

I do, however, agree completely that talking to the other guy is always the right first step in solving a situation like this. Whatever he is thinking, whether it's rational or not, and what his circumstances are, are always relevant and helpful to know.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I agree entirely.

One reason why I love cruising the Baltic is you almost never share an anchorage with anyone.

The "fetish for scope", which is not even good anchoring practice, greatly complicates anchoring in crowded anchorages.

Engaging with and talking to the angry, territorial person often solves this problem, however, and sometimes even leads to some adventures.

Works for Newfoundland and Lake Superior as well .

I've only ever encountered this situation once in my cruising life. It was in one of the busy southern Great Lakes (Ontario). We came into an anchorage which was normally quite busy. It could easily accomodate a dozen or more boats. Luckily I was number two, so we proceeded to find a spot as far away as possible from the one boat that was sitting in the middle.

As we go to drop the guy comes up to the bow and starts yelling "I have 150 feet out!!" The anchorage was 12' deep. I thanked him for the information, then said in the nicest way; "You realize you're in 12' of water?" He just ignored me.

I calculated that even with his ridiculous amount out, we were still OK, so I thanked him for the information and proceeded. He remained quiet for a while, but was all passive-aggressive up on the bow. In the end, I concluded this fellow just wanted the whole anchorage to himself, so was purposely trying to block others from using it.

We never got close to be worried, but he remained cranky. He also had a wife/partner on board who was obviously trying to talk some sense into the fellow. They ended up arguing. It was clear she was on our side.

The whole thing put a damper on the mood, but in the end I mostly felt bad for the woman who likely had to put up with this behaviour, over and over.