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Old 30-05-2017, 17:39   #46
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?

Discussion between "classic" and "foiling" sailing seems analogous to C19 argument between sail and steam. At the rate of development then, the steam technology took 100 years or so to "perfect", before diesel.

As an aside, apparently competitive powerboat racing began around 1906 (wiki).

Commercial steam passenger ships also "raced", sometimes leading to disaster. A History of Steamboat Racing — and Shipwrecks — in the Hudson River - Hudson Valley Magazine - September 2014 - Poughkeepsie, NY ).

Meantime, sail boat racing continued unabated, as we all know.

There's room for all.

I've followed and enjoyed America's Cup since Perth (1986?), but certainly, in my mind positioning it right at the bleeding edge of "wind powered" competition is better than just great.

Craig Monk, a Grinder on the Kiwi boats in the '90's '00's just said on a NZ TV interview that these boats could be in zero wind in a 12 knot current (eg river) and be doing 12 knots over ground up current. The create their own wind.

This new spectacle is gobsmacking, even in the view of those I have shown it to recently.

In the future, can anyone else see us on 6 to 8 meter foils, computer controlled, foiling smoothly, a meter above 5 meter ocean swells, averaging 25kts on a long passage? In 10 years? 600 Nm/day = 5 days across the Atlantic?

Hehe that could puts the mono v multihull (Autocontrol vs manual steering) argument into context.
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Old 31-05-2017, 05:49   #47
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?

Another great day of hydraulic pumping ahead!
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Old 31-05-2017, 06:26   #48
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?

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Another great day of hydraulic pumping ahead!
This May/June on NBC Sports we have the cyclists of the America's Cup, and in July we have the cyclists of the Tour De France ;-)

I am very curious what the power output compares between the cyclists and arm grinders. On my bicycle I have a power meter that constantly measures power in watts, using strain gauges on the pedals arms. I bet that they have something similar. I read the other day about a power output in the 1500 watt range - but that must be a peak wattage, not sustained. Chris Froome, the current TDF title holder, can manage just north of 400 watts sustained for 40 minutes. I doubt that the AC grinders, either arm or leg based, come close to that wattage.

It's fascinating that the AC grinders provide all the power for the boat (except electrical for sensors, etc), pressurizing hydraulic accumulators for upcoming maneuvers. In previous generations the guys grinding had short bouts of intense activity during tacks, etc. Now the grinders are working at a lower intensity but over a longer sustained period.
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Old 03-06-2017, 17:56   #49
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?

So we dont race in light wind and we dont race in heavy wind. Thrilling.
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Old 03-06-2017, 18:18   #50
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?

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So we dont race in light wind and we dont race in heavy wind. Thrilling.


Their minimum is 7 knots. Pretty light if you ask me. And they're doing 20+ knots while sailing in 7 knots of wind.

Their max is 20 or 25 knots. More or less normal top wind speed for any sort of competitive racing, anything beyond is just survival.
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Old 03-06-2017, 19:17   #51
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?

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So we dont race in light wind and we dont race in heavy wind. Thrilling.
The boats see around 50kts apparent. Probably more than any other AC boats have.
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Old 03-06-2017, 21:39   #52
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?

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So we dont race in light wind and we dont race in heavy wind. Thrilling.
And we don't race for more than 25-30 minutes ( or 10 minutes to the seconds mark)
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Old 03-06-2017, 21:47   #53
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?

Actually, I think the 12 metre boats should be allowed to compete.

Like "The Race". Monos were allowed, but nobody bothered entering one.
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Old 03-06-2017, 21:53   #54
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?

Moths on foils really scoot. I wonder what the mono guys are working on? The ball is in your court!
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Old 04-06-2017, 00:05   #55
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?

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Moths on foils really scoot. I wonder what the mono guys are working on? The ball is in your court!
They do. I think it gets harder when the weight of the crew is no longer sufficient ballast. But I genuinely think the racing should be open to monohulls and tris.
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Old 04-06-2017, 06:15   #56
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?

The thing I really love about this Cup is all the exciting crew work. The race is long enough to bring strategic jib changes between upwind legs into play. The spinnaker sets and peels and douses always add to the excitement too! Oh wait . . .
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Old 04-06-2017, 08:07   #57
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?

All sort of griping about how the current generation of boats do not live up to someone's idea of what AC racing is all about. Every year we hear the same type of comments made, regardless of which generation we're talking about. If you don't like it, don't watch. I enjoy the new stuff, the old stuff, and everything in between. I love the contrasts between them, the excitement of the new, the gracefulness of the old. And while I doubt we'll see it in TV, I'd love to watch the J-Class regatta being held after the AC finals. They will have 8 J-Class boats in Bermuda, 2 more than the current generation AC boats competing. See, the classics are still alive and well, right alongside the young whippersnappers...

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Old 05-06-2017, 17:05   #58
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?

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The thing I really love about this Cup is all the exciting crew work. The race is long enough to bring strategic jib changes between upwind legs into play. The spinnaker sets and peels and douses always add to the excitement too! Oh wait . . .
Good point Bleemus. I used to enjoy watching those in the old America's Cup. Or rather hearing the commentators point out the differences.

Then again, as coal fired steam progressed to diesel injection on the racing ocean liners, did the world miss the excitement of the muscle bound dust blackened coal stokers giving way to a overall clad bloke watching a dial?
(not sure how valid this analogy is though)
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Old 05-06-2017, 19:02   #59
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?

I dont long for J Class boats to race the Cup or even 12 meters. By todays standards they are too heavy but the crewwork was amazing and sometimes decided a race. I do believe the spectacle of the great speed these cats have is fun to watch but the raw element of a team is missing. Everyone but the helmsman spends the whole race pumping hydraulics. Im sorry but that is just silly. All done for the non-sailor whose only attracted by the fact they can do 40 knots. Try pumping hydraulics all the way from Annapolis to Newport or even Figawi. Bet a lot of those crews would quickly take up another sport. Having been a bowman on a ULDB 70 the satisfaction of a well executed peel to get around the leeward mark ahead of your competition was something you cant get sitting on a cycle pumping oil.

I love match racing but, in my humble opinion, the greatest part of match racing is missing from this Cup. Brains.
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Old 05-06-2017, 20:28   #60
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?

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I tried very hard to get into it, but it is too far removed from what my mind visualizes as sailing. I can appreciate the technical aspects of it, but as a sailor, I'd much prefer watching a well-fought competition between sailboats and not racing foils.
By that metric, I'd say that your boat is not a real sailboat, since only boats with hulls built by hand from a single breadfruit tree, hand-made senet lines and sails hand-woven of pandanus are "real" sailboats.

Foilers, Hobie Cats, windsurfers and kite boarders are all sailing vessels in my book. Anything that expands and popularizes wind as the primary motivator of watercraft should be promoted by the wider sailing community.
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