Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-02-2019, 11:15   #16
Registered User
 
rsn48's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Qualicum Beach, Vancouver Island, BC
Boat: 1969 30 Mariner Sedan Cruiser
Posts: 752
Re: Yep, one of those guys ;)

Still haven't looked yet for the sailing training company but will. Motorsailor is a style of boat where you can steer from inside, most sailboats don't have this, instead you sit outside in the miserable rain pretending you are having a good time - been there, done that, decided it was stupid. People tend to buy what they see around them, kind of like the anchoring phenomena when you set your anchor, then everyone else anchors around you, they figure you know what you are doing and they not so much.

Motorsailing vessels historically haven't been great - efficient - sailing boats, not sailing well into the wind and often heavier, hence slower. The boats often have "heavy" displacement hulls, the trend today is to construct hulls that aren't as heavy for the given footage. I prefer heavier hulls, generally more sea kindly.

If look at the picture on the bottom right, you will see a helm inside the cabin, most sailboats don't have this. In warm tropical areas, a steering station inside probably isn't needed, but for northern climes, you are better off having one unless you enjoy suffering.

To put this into a railroading context, you can be the engineer in the cab, out of the elements, or you can be one of those yard engineers that controls the train engine wirelessly, in the elements, wishing you weren't alive some days - I think of those days in Vancouver with endless pouring rain and working in that, not for me, I'm too much a whoosie. Most boat designs reflect a southern orientation, warm with lots of sun and blue skies, in my opinion this isn't the best system in coast Pacific Northwest, coastal BC, or east coast realities in Maine and Newfoundland. There was (is?) a guy (company) out of greater Vancouver somewhere that was designing motorsailors that behaved more like a traditional faster sailboat, I haven't been able to find anything recently about this line of boats. Maybe his idea was so rational it died an illogical death, since real boaters didn't purchase that style of sailing, they'd rather suffer - that's what everyone does so it must be good.

I used to sail from Point Roberts to Friday Harbour with a bunch of alcoholic hospital administrators. We sailed through all the months, at one point I realized I had done more sailing in the night than in the day. I was the sober fool at the outside helm at one in the morning, in absolute miserable conditions in November, December, January, February. Yes, those were the "good old" days. Because the ocean wasn't so kindly in those months, I learned to love a heavy displacement hull - slower but more comfortable.

And I learned to loath sitting outside in miserable weather. Had two buddies come up in late September of 2018 when our weather was wet for about ten days, we were out in that. Powered over to Desolation Sound passing sail boaters who were out in the misery, more power to them. I, the whoosie, was inside with my buddies, both sailboat types who learned the miracle of an inside steering station, with the boat pumping out heat, and the windshield wipers going.

Electric motors with diesel generators work well in train engines because you aren't paying for that technology. I'm refitting my boat and for a Volve Penta 280 gas duoprop replacement for my old Mercury 270 hp gas engine, when you throw everything in, will be around $43,000. To go the electric/diesel route with new leg for the inboard/outboard, would almost double that amount so I don't go that route, too expensive for not much advantage. Even converting to all diesel is a much more expensive proposition and with the price of diesel fuel now approaching gas prices, the advantage isn't as profound as in the past.
rsn48 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2019, 11:46   #17
Registered User
 
Wayne hoath's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Gosport
Boat: Fisher 37
Posts: 91
Re: Yep, one of those guys ;)

I am biased but if you want a motor sailor to sail in the high latitudes then you could do a lot worse than one of these Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1664.jpg
Views:	74
Size:	439.6 KB
ID:	186125. Others will disagree and talk about upwind performance. It’s a compromise you will be glad you took on a cold rainy night.
Wayne hoath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2019, 12:26   #18
Registered User
 
TheRailRoader's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: North west BC.
Posts: 128
Re: Yep, one of those guys ;)

Thanks for the explanation Tayana42 ��

The reasons keeping the budget sub 50k on the purchase are as long as the structure is solid, I figured everything has a half life and if we plan on leaving in 5-8 years a lot of stuff may need to be replaced before departing.

I figured a radar, sonar, ais etc kit from B&G before we leave would be needed for around 5k. I assume in 8 years time it would be due time to replace or upgrade electronics.

From what I saw sails and rigging would need replacing too, to the tune of thousands as well.

Also if I decide on tinkering on converting to hybrid, I may have to trial and error a couple systems... hopefully not, but who knows. I also plan on doing a couple month long trips before I do this so I can see how it handles and if I really "need" the hybrid.. could be an expense I dont need.

I also know my wife.. and interior tinkering will most likely to be done. New galley, new foam on the seats etc.. she is more of a minimalist then I am, but she has her priorities and I have mine.

I figure on a 40-45ft I'd be looking at 3k/mo expenses when living aboard.. wild cards being repairs, marinas etc. So my plan is completely refitting the boat within 24 months of the departure date in order to minimize maintenance costs as much as possible. But I feel at 50k, once I buy it and start learning I may finds things I like and dont like and changing around a boat that I paid 50k or less for has a slightly different impact then a 200k boat.

But I am keeping an open mind, I hope to be crawling onto more expensive boats next week and who knows.. maybe we may just buy something straight off that we like. My brother in victoria does a lot of sailing and builds boats for a living, so we are leaning on him a fair bit too.. but he implies a hans christian yacht would be perfect even if we have to pay more.. but I keep seeing the C&C boats and loving the way they look.

But all in all i could probably take the budget out comfortably to 200k, but I just can't.. I make ok money and could drive new cars.. but I buy used. I could build my dream house, but I bought something that has more investment/rent value in it.. I never like having to max out my income to buy something. Also buying an older/cheaper boat and putting a tonne of high end tech in it.. kinda appeals to me.. but as a kid I built up a hot rod that put 380 hp to the wheels and 420 ft lbs of torque there as well.. yet it looked like a broke down beater.. it was fun. So maybe I am biased, maybe even an idiot, heck who knows I may change and up my budget or regret it in a few years if I don't.. but right now I feel, however rightly or wrongly, that this works best for my family and I.. but maybe by the end of next week that will change haha.

P.s very compelling post RSN I saw that after I posted, you make sense, maybe to much so. Thanks. And yes I dont pay for the tech in the railroading world this is true, but I do respect it.. but if cost prohibitive then no point to it. No point in saving 10$ on gas but thousands to install.
TheRailRoader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2019, 12:31   #19
Registered User
 
Dark Horse's Avatar

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada
Boat: Beneteau Idylle 51
Posts: 327
Re: Yep, one of those guys ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KTP View Post

I recommend getting a marine survey and then crumpling it up so it is really soft and can be of some use in the head. Everything that is expensive to fix, they miss or don't inspect because it isn't part of the standard survey. They are dang good at reading expired labels on $20 fire extinguishers though and putting that large and clear in the survey.

What KTP said . You need a survey for insurance. Other than that they are mostly useless. If you want to become a certified surveyor you only need to send money to the certifying agency and that is it.. Done.


Know your stuff. Have a personal moisture meter which you go over the boat BEFORE you make an offer. Run it over the deck, the topside, the bulk heads, the floors. EVERYWHERE. If you find moisture in the bulkheads just leave.
Dark Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2019, 14:43   #20
Registered User
 
Dark Horse's Avatar

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada
Boat: Beneteau Idylle 51
Posts: 327
Re: Yep, one of those guys ;)

[QUOTE=TheRailRoader;2827902]��

have to pay more.. but I keep seeing the C&C boats and loving the way they look.

But all in all i could probably take the budget out comfortably to 200k, but I just can't.. I make ok money and could drive new cars.. but I buy used.
/QUOTE]


RailRoader. Long post... sorry.

First the money. When you buy an old boat it needs new everything. Sails, autohelm, solar panels, chart plotters, windlass, anchor , chain, pumps, dodger, bimini, radios, life raft and I could go on and on. Everything I mentioned including the anchor and chain wear out.

Your best bet is if you get lucky like someone I knew who bought a boat that had been outfitted and the owners gave up on the way to the ocean off the Great Lakes. They got the boat for a song and everything was new. Your unlikely to get that lucky. You will likely put every bit of the 200K into what ever boat you buy.

A new set of dacron sails for my current boat is about 20K. 3/8 G4 Chain is $10.00 cdn a foot and you need 300 minimum. A windlass is 4K cdn minimum. Batteries depending on your configuration can go 3K-4K easy. A new spade anchor for my boat is going to run me 1800 US. A water maker if you don't have one is 6 to 8k US. A new dodger and bimini can run you 12-15K here in Toronto for a large boat. New pilot with drive for a 45 footer is 6K.

None of these prices include installation. Being able to it yourself is real important. As Red Green said. If the girls don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy.


Refitting an old boat is expensive. Buying a relatively new boat is not much better because most of what they have will be wore out too and the boats are not as good to start with. People who are selling their boats are not usually maintaining them.

On C&C's

I have owned C&C's 2 of them A 34 and a 38 Mk3. Pretty go fast( in their day) boats and I really liked them. But C&C's are not blue water boats. Ya they can go in the blue water and some have likely gone around the world but they are light for their size and have mostly shallow flat bottoms and they pound and they pound. Noise enough to wake the dead and scare them away...

They have small shallow anchor lockers, they round up under heavy conditions and in general C&C made a relatively tender boat prone to rounding up in heavy weather if sail was not reduced quickly. Not an asset out on the deep blue in howling winds and you will end up on the deep blue in howling winds. The boats are strong and they will not give up but the crew might.
We raced the C&C's for years and were out in almost any weather Lake Ontario could throw at us. 25/30 knots on these boats and she struggling, things were breaking.. number 3 and a double reefed main in 23-25 knots of wind and 6-8 foot waves and we were just hanging on is all. All for a little flag...

I traded up to a Beneteau Idylle 51. Nice boat, sails very well has a nice deep hull shape and still she will pound on occasion. True blue water boat but with the usual compromises.. Like storage. ( Why is almost every boat storage compromised)

On my Idylle 28 knots true wind tight close reaching doing 10 knots with a 125 jib and a single reef. Heeled over but not rail under Easy Peasy.



On any C&C you would be rail under and hanging on likely making 4 knots once leeway and waves were taken into account


In the end it is all about choice of the many options out there but I would not choose a C&C... Your crew will be exhausted by the time you get where your going and they will not be happy.

You don't want a new C&C either. They are also go fast high performance boats that will not serve you well in the trades.

I will leave you with this story. I knew a fellow with a C&C 38 Mk3. He left Toronto for the Azores about a decade ago. I was told that he left with his 2 sons who he got along with very well, and his life long best friend. After they made land I hear that not one of them talked to another for 2 years. That trip must have been pretty bad... Don't be THAT guy.
Dark Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2019, 15:01   #21
Registered User
 
TheRailRoader's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: North west BC.
Posts: 128
Re: Yep, one of those guys ;)

I must thank you Dark Horse, your post exactly the reason I must do a bit more research before buying.

My wife just read through this thread and we are having a discussion. I think we really need to get on boats in different price categories, before making any decision. I went into business once with a friend, not quite the same thing, but because of lack of planning we had a falling out. I wont risk that with my family so I plan on crossing my T's and dotting my i's before buying.

I will be looking at different manufacturers closer.
TheRailRoader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2019, 15:13   #22
Registered User
 
Dark Horse's Avatar

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada
Boat: Beneteau Idylle 51
Posts: 327
Re: Yep, one of those guys ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRailRoader View Post
I figured a radar, sonar, ais etc kit from B&G before we leave would be needed for around 5k. I assume in 8 years time it would be due time to replace or upgrade electronics.



Stay away from B&G and anything by Navico in general. Nobody seems to have much good to say. Adventures of Tanglewood: Wall of Shame
Dark Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2019, 15:17   #23
Registered User
 
TheRailRoader's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: North west BC.
Posts: 128
Re: Yep, one of those guys ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Horse View Post
Stay away from B&G and anything by Navico in general. Nobody seems to have much good to say. Adventures of Tanglewood: Wall of Shame
I am looking like swiss cheese here with my plan here 😂
A couple people I follow on YouTube use B&G or Navionics and it seemed to look pretty slick and that is why I threw that name out there.

Also I believe it is the draft? Which helps indicate how deep the V of the boat is and I do notice C&C are generally a couple feet shorter then others. Quite interesting.
TheRailRoader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2019, 15:58   #24
Registered User
 
Dark Horse's Avatar

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada
Boat: Beneteau Idylle 51
Posts: 327
Re: Yep, one of those guys ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRailRoader View Post
I must thank you Dark Horse, your post exactly the reason I must do a bit more research before buying.

My wife just read through this thread and we are having a discussion. I think we really need to get on boats in different price categories, before making any decision. I went into business once with a friend, not quite the same thing, but because of lack of planning we had a falling out. I wont risk that with my family so I plan on crossing my T's and dotting my i's before buying.

I will be looking at different manufacturers closer.
Your very welcome. Its as much about designers as builders.

Take a look at this boat.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...nced%20listing

It is what I own. I am not suggesting you buy it. I can think of plenty of reasons to buy it and plenty of reasons to not buy it. Remember every boat is a compromise. I am showing you this to contrast an old blue water sailor designed by German ( pronounced Herman) Frers. To a modern dock boat. Herman is old now but he designed nice boats.

  • Look at the hull shape on the old boat. Look at the canoe body, the wetted area which is all of the black under the strips. This is all in the water.
  • Look how deep the body goes. This boat draws 6'4" of water and 1/2 of that is the body of the boat. She only has about 3'-6" of fin and the rest is body. Despite that she sails fast and points well.
  • Despite the hull depth sometimes she still pounds.
Compare that boat to this boat.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...dard%20listing

Same size boat.

Look at the hull. Its flat and shallow. It will pound and be hard do control. An uncomfortable sail. Contrast the following:

Keel length.. Not depth but length.
  • The old boat tracks like an arrow thru the water due to the 14ft long chord of the keel. Easy to control no matter what the weather.
  • The new boat has a short chord perhaps 6 ft. When it gets to the top of the wave it has almost nothing in the water and it will try to turn due to the forces of the wind and the waves. Squirrelly.

Interior. Look how pretty the new boat is. Big open spaces attractive to the eye.. at least in the photo Look at how the old boat is more condensed and packed in. Don't be fooled.. We have 8 for dinner on that old boat. But now imagine your underway.
  • You will just roll out of the big queen in the middle of the cabin and it will hurt when you do.
  • No hand holds on the new boat. How do you get from the companion way to the head or anywhere else.
  • Look at the flooring. On the old boat its teak and holly. Infinitely repairable. On the new boat it is laminate flooring this has been going in these boats for 15 years at least. Not repairable.
  • On the new boat it's going to be hard to cook. On the old boat you have hand holds above the window.
  • In general the fit and finish in new boats is deplorable and its not something new. The fit and finish on the old boat is comparable to a new million dollar Hylas 49, The fit and finish on the new boat is bad Ikea. By new boats I mean post 1999.
Nobody shows this to you or tells you about it at the boat show. We were on a Caliber 47 LRC about 8 years ago. If you were less than 5'6" you could not reach any of the hand holds. How are you going to move around the boat safely with nothing to hang on to. Nice boat though...

It is my opinion that you want a nice fast blue water boat. A good performer but not a race boat. You want heavy displacement but it should be fun to sail because if it is not you will not like it.

As you sail through the ocean your going to be moving forward and up and down. Its much better to be moving forward relatively quickly so there is less up and down. Do you want a 100 mile a day boat or a 150 mile a day boat. Me I want the 150. I don't want to be bobbing like a cork out there.

Cheers
Dark Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2019, 16:05   #25
Registered User
 
Dark Horse's Avatar

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada
Boat: Beneteau Idylle 51
Posts: 327
Re: Yep, one of those guys ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRailRoader View Post
I am looking like swiss cheese here with my plan here 😂
A couple people I follow on YouTube use B&G or Navionics and it seemed to look pretty slick and that is why I threw that name out there.

Also I believe it is the draft? Which helps indicate how deep the V of the boat is and I do notice C&C are generally a couple feet shorter then others. Quite interesting.

The Youtubers are getting this stuff for free from the manufacturers in exchange for advertising the stuff. They are not unbiased. Some of these Youtubers are pulling down 300K per year doing their video stuff and their endorsements.



If you want unbiased try this guy. https://www.morganscloud.com/ He charges 2$ per month USD to access his articles. Well worth the money IMHO.



Draft is the total distance from the water to the bottom of the keel. The canoe body is the portion of the boat that is in the water but does not count the keel. A deep canoe body is good and sea kindly, a shallow canoe body will pound.
Dark Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2019, 16:55   #26
Registered User
 
TheRailRoader's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: North west BC.
Posts: 128
Re: Yep, one of those guys ;)

That Beneteau is one sexy boat but that 78k USD price tag, plus the fee to get it here would likely put it to 150k CAD. If i could have that here for 78k CAD, upping my budget a touch would definitely be a go.

Thanks for explaining how the boat rides to me, taking a look at boats in my budget on yachtworld I see some options still. Lots to think on.

Good old youtubers and sponsorships, should have known better. Young kids with no real work experience buying half a million or more dollars worth of equipment should have made me figure it out. But then again I'm not the brightest light haha.

Talk more later, but thanks and from the pictures I can see why you love your boat she looks amazing.
TheRailRoader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2019, 17:58   #27
rbk
Registered User
 
rbk's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Canada
Boat: T37
Posts: 2,107
Re: Yep, one of those guys ;)

For the price of a week long charter (rental) you could buy a cheap trailer sailor and not lose any money on it, and be gaining valuable info for the next 5-8 years and be out sailing lakes and/or making trips to the coast for a week or two in the salt. Youll get more out of that than taking all the courses without prior knowledge. If you sail a cheap (<$5k) trailer sailor for a year or two then take a course you’ll get WAY more out of courses than going in green.

Also your price point for that size boat, you can expect to put that again into it getting it up to par. Plan on spending another 20-30 grand (cnd I assume) and try and find something partway theough a refit, don’t get hung up on electronics and water makers like most. Good hull, rig, engine and sails (a bonus) everything else is disposable unfortunately. Spending 3k on some electronics is better to replace than a 15k rig or 20k engine.
rbk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2019, 18:21   #28
Registered User
 
Dark Horse's Avatar

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada
Boat: Beneteau Idylle 51
Posts: 327
Re: Yep, one of those guys ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRailRoader View Post
That Beneteau is one sexy boat but that 78k USD price tag, plus the fee to get it here would likely put it to 150k CAD. If i could have that here for 78k CAD, upping my budget a touch would definitely be a go.

Thanks for explaining how the boat rides to me, taking a look at boats in my budget on yachtworld I see some options still. Lots to think on.

Good old youtubers and sponsorships, should have known better. Young kids with no real work experience buying half a million or more dollars worth of equipment should have made me figure it out. But then again I'm not the brightest light haha.

Talk more later, but thanks and from the pictures I can see why you love your boat she looks amazing.

4 months ago they were asking 150 and had been for the previous 18 months. That boat will likely go in the 60's now. A shame really. That boat is comparable in fit and finish to a new Hylas 49 and those are a million US. For the asking price you could not layup the hull and deck.



There are lots of options out there. Just take your time and don't be afraid to go low on the offer. Its what everyone else is doing. It's not like these things are flying off the shelf.
Dark Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2019, 18:24   #29
Registered User
 
Dark Horse's Avatar

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada
Boat: Beneteau Idylle 51
Posts: 327
Re: Yep, one of those guys ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbk View Post

Also your price point for that size boat, you can expect to put that again into it getting it up to par. Plan on spending another 20-30 grand (cnd I assume) and try and find something partway theough a refit, don’t get hung up on electronics and water makers like most. Good hull, rig, engine and sails (a bonus) everything else is disposable unfortunately. Spending 3k on some electronics is better to replace than a 15k rig or 20k engine.

RBK is spot on. Your going to put that into it again on the refit. But other than the rigging and sails, refit costs are the same. A pump is a pump..Another can of bottom paint more or less...
Dark Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2019, 18:31   #30
Registered User
 
Dark Horse's Avatar

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada
Boat: Beneteau Idylle 51
Posts: 327
Re: Yep, one of those guys ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRailRoader View Post
That Beneteau is one sexy boat but that 78k USD price tag, plus the fee to get it here would likely put it to 150k CAD. If i could have that here for 78k CAD, upping my budget a touch would definitely be a go.

Good I like the spunk. I have sailed 25 footers, 35 footers 50 footers and 50 footers. They all sail the same way.


The only difference is in maneuvering room and level of prep. A 25 footer you can just give a shove. A 50 footer requires a little more planning and prep.


Things are also much heavier muscle wise on bigger boats. So we have this.

https://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-072...=28+volt+drill


and this


WINCH BIT HOME


Now its all easy. If you go that route you will want to add a second angle attachment to the drill otherwise the load is to heavy and you kill the battery.


We use it to hoist the main and trim the head sail.



Once your into 40-45 feet things get heavy...
Dark Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yep - we dragged! SVRocinante Anchoring & Mooring 186 13-02-2019 07:06
Yep, another new member. Squid Bait Meets & Greets 2 17-07-2017 02:17
Yep.. Another new member Chookfoot Meets & Greets 1 07-09-2015 03:05
New Member From Egypt .. (Yep I Ride Camels ...) Vulkyn Meets & Greets 5 04-12-2013 14:19
Yep, Another One justwaiting Meets & Greets 4 26-06-2010 21:56

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:55.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.