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Old 10-12-2020, 16:30   #1
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We need a bigger boat...

Hello CF! I've just decided to join this wonderful group and by way of introduction, a short story.

It all started with a canoe. My beautiful bride and I enjoyed taking full advantage of our beautiful summers and breathtaking wilderness in the PNW on a canoe, exploring remote locations, hiking, and camping. But then we had four kids and as our family expanded... our freeboard diminished.

"We need a bigger boat."

We said this to each other one summer day while crossing one of our favorite lakes, noting how eerily close we had become with the surface of the water. It was not long after that our family found ourselves in a 14' aluminum with a 20hp outboard cruising much more comfortably across the same lake.

But a bigger boat meant we could expand our horizons to larger lakes and even some of the calmer, narrow ocean inlets close by. So, this past summer, that's just what we did. Every weekend and vacation was spent on the water and now, we could camp more comfortably because we could pack more of everything and... oh wait, I think we just discovered our little boat's limitations...

"We need a bigger boat."

We are now happy owners of a newer (new-ish) Bayliner Discovery 192 (cuddy cabin). We bought it this winter and have only taken it out a few times. The plan is, in the spring and over the next few years, to be back out on the water - this time, exploring our beautiful BC coastline and local Gulf Islands.

But there's a problem... my wife and I, in the last half of this year, started incorporating destinations like 'Alaska' and 'Pacific Coast' into our conversations. We've even had the audacity to mention the 'Caribbean' once or twice. And then there's this new fascination with sailing... podcasts, videos, books. I think one might say I've got it bad. I'm already looking into local sailing clubs, signed up for seminars, and taking my VHF course next month. I'm afraid to say it, but one of these days...

"We're going to need a bigger boat."


PS - If there's anyone in the Vancouver area who might be willing to take aboard this greenhorn as ballast one of these days and show him a few things - put him to work on a real sailboat, I'd happily bring along some of our farm honey in exchange for the gesture.
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Old 10-12-2020, 17:14   #2
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Re: We need a bigger boat...

Welcome to the forum,4Kids.

Hard to be of assistance from Florida, but it does sound as if you (and yours) are ready to enlargen your envelope. What you've learned transfers, and the next step may be sheltered waters, with some pilotage, ev3n navigation, thrown in, and multi-day trips. Have a wonderful time of it.
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Old 10-12-2020, 18:04   #3
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Re: We need a bigger boat...

Hi and welcome from Ontario Canada

I really loved reading this post! I immediately remembered the feeling of my first and only boat purchase.

So here I am fixing this, adding that. Maybe some new paint looking at it all pleased with myself and then BAM ..... I need a bigger boat I say to myself.

I literally lol'd when I read your post. I'll keep an eye if I ever get to the "warm" coast.

Fair winds

Tim
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4KidsForesail View Post
Hello CF! I've just decided to join this wonderful group and by way of introduction, a short story.

It all started with a canoe. My beautiful bride and I enjoyed taking full advantage of our beautiful summers and breathtaking wilderness in the PNW on a canoe, exploring remote locations, hiking, and camping. But then we had four kids and as our family expanded... our freeboard diminished.

"We need a bigger boat."

We said this to each other one summer day while crossing one of our favorite lakes, noting how eerily close we had become with the surface of the water. It was not long after that our family found ourselves in a 14' aluminum with a 20hp outboard cruising much more comfortably across the same lake.

But a bigger boat meant we could expand our horizons to larger lakes and even some of the calmer, narrow ocean inlets close by. So, this past summer, that's just what we did. Every weekend and vacation was spent on the water and now, we could camp more comfortably because we could pack more of everything and... oh wait, I think we just discovered our little boat's limitations...

"We need a bigger boat."

We are now happy owners of a newer (new-ish) Bayliner Discovery 192 (cuddy cabin). We bought it this winter and have only taken it out a few times. The plan is, in the spring and over the next few years, to be back out on the water - this time, exploring our beautiful BC coastline and local Gulf Islands.

But there's a problem... my wife and I, in the last half of this year, started incorporating destinations like 'Alaska' and 'Pacific Coast' into our conversations. We've even had the audacity to mention the 'Caribbean' once or twice. And then there's this new fascination with sailing... podcasts, videos, books. I think one might say I've got it bad. I'm already looking into local sailing clubs, signed up for seminars, and taking my VHF course next month. I'm afraid to say it, but one of these days...

"We're going to need a bigger boat."


PS - If there's anyone in the Vancouver area who might be willing to take aboard this greenhorn as ballast one of these days and show him a few things - put him to work on a real sailboat, I'd happily bring along some of our farm honey in exchange for the gesture.
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Old 11-12-2020, 02:26   #4
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Re: We need a bigger boat...

Looks to me with all that crew you need to charter a catamaran for a couple of weeks in the Caribbean and cruise around the smaller islands and see how you get on on a foot holiday . Choose a decent company based on views of forumites but The Moorings or suchlike might be the way forward to try out your dreams.
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Old 11-12-2020, 03:31   #5
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Re: We need a bigger boat...

One of my early mentors in boating was fond of saying "the only time you need a boat is when the one you're on is sinking and the one next to it isn't."

The PNW with San Juan Islands, SE Alaska, and such is one of the world's premier cruising grounds. Trawlers seem to be the vessel of choice. With four kids, might make sense. For some reason, polished YouTube videos seem to be the exclusive domain of sailors so there isn't much to whet an appetite for power. There is one couple with two young children aboard a Nordhavn 55 who have a YouTube channel "Mermaid Monster." I find it pretty unwatchable but I don't have kids. Theres also a blog by a couple on a Grand Banks 42 with a couple kids. Bummfuzzle started cruising years ago on a sailing cat, then to a monohull, then to the trawler. They're currently in the Caribbean. Blog only - he's a good writer and a decent photographer. I wish they were more prolific - content is good and story interesting.

There are several trawler charter companies in your neck of the woods. They will help you get acclimated to driving the boat then send you on your way. Decent alternative to loading a family of six on an airplane these days.

Finally, if you decide to dip your toe further into power vs sail, there is a sister forum to CF for trawlers. TrawlerForum

Welcome aboard.

Peter
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Old 11-12-2020, 04:02   #6
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Re: We need a bigger boat...

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, 4Kids.
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Old 11-12-2020, 08:41   #7
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Re: We need a bigger boat...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
One of my early mentors in boating was fond of saying "the only time you need a boat is when the one you're on is sinking and the one next to it isn't."

LOL! Is this mentor still for hire? Sounds like he would be a good influence at this present conjuncture.

Thank you all for your warm welcome to the forum. Being able to discover first hand what I've already learned about the boating community being one big family has been wonderful to experience.

I guess the key for the next little while as I continue to absorb all the wisdom I can from all the resources out there is to just stay afloat in the boat I have so I don't have to jump to another one in a panic.

Researching what the next boat could be, I feel, could take another couple of years and the most limiting factor is definitely the size of the family. I've had to strike so many possibilities off the list right out of the gate simply because they only come in two cabin models and other such accommodation factors that are immediate deal-breakers. The first place I go on a boat listing is to the accommodations section and look for a floor plan on the images. If the boat doesn't have that info, no point in even looking (just a note to all you boat sellers out there

If you're still reading at this point and curious, this is where the last 4-6 months of researching have left me as far as boat options go:

If it's going to be sail, I like the layout and economics of models such as the Beneteau 44CC, Oyster 49 PH...(etc) the layout with the full walk-around queen in the master aft cabin and the v-berth and bunk beds (2 cabin) in the bow with two heads. I know there are a bunch of others in the 45-49' range out there and if it's in the price range (I'm assuming that will be 100-150K in the next few years) then I would certainly look at it. Then there's either the newer models with that floor plan or better made older models like the Hallbert Rassy 48 that are beautiful but out of the price range more than likely.

If it's going to be power/trawler then three cabins are even harder to find! You've almost got to be in a 55' boat to get enough accommodations (more punishment for having a larger family! LOL!). But something like a Californian 48 or a Silverton 453 might fit the bill as far as economy and scale.

And then if it's a catamaran... well that would just be the best-case scenario and then my criteria gets real simple - it just has to be affordable. Ha!

Whatever we end up getting we may opt to put it into charter to offset cost until we're ready for a big trip or the next adventure.

Soooooooo many options. At least it's still just fun without the pressure.

One thing is for sure though... one of these days...

"We're going to need a bigger boat."
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Old 11-12-2020, 08:45   #8
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Re: We need a bigger boat...

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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, 4Kids.
Thank you Gord May!
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But then our family got big,
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Old 11-12-2020, 10:22   #9
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Re: We need a bigger boat...

4kids:

Welcome aboard CF :-) Are you doing your VHF via the Power Squadrons? I assume, since you already have the Bayliner, that you already have your PCOC.

Below are some remarks, from one Vancouverite to another, to set you thinking:

The quickest and easiest way to get on the water in a sailboat is to contact Cooper Boating on Granville Island. Here is their addy: https://www.cooperboating.com/

They can give you everything you might require at this point in your seafaring career. They can do it for far less money than it will cost you (and your family) to develop your seamanship in your own boat(s) without professional guidance. If the kids are of dinghy sailing age, think about enrolling them at, say, the Locarno Sailing Club at Jericho Sailing Centre: https://jsca.bc.ca/ You might even find something there that would interest and assist you, yourself :-)!

Since we are stuck ashore at least till the spring, you might like to use the time to cogitate on just what the differences are between cruising in a Bayliner good for 20 knots on flat water, and a sailboat good for six or seven knots in lumpy water and a good stiff blow that would dismay the Bayliner, let alone her crew.

You say your long term plans include Alaska and the Pacific Coast. I recommend therefore that you also use the time to study up on just what a cruising skipper needs to know, including pilotage and weather forecasting. You will find that boat handling is the least of it. I could teach you that in a leisurely week-end. Skippering takes a lifetime to learn. But the Power Squadrons can get you off to a good start on pilotage, though it's prolly too late to enroll in their course this year. Cooper's can substitute at any time of the year, though at greater cost. There is lots of literature available, and for specific questions about all things sailing you can, of course, ask us here.

In regard to a suitable choice of boat, I also recommend that you ask experienced cruising folk, of whom this forum has many, for their advice, rather than rely on the glossy mags and the fancy brochures whose interests are hardly congruent with your own. There is, however, one intelligent boating mag, that you my like to have a look at. It is WoodenBoat which does immeasurably more than its name would suggest. I have no connection with WB other that having every single issue since #1 some fifty years ago - that's how good it is :-)!.

I think you will find that boats ",,,with the full walk-around queen..." is NOT the optimal choice if you wish to go to Alaska, let alone circumnavigate Vancouver Island or take the boat down the Washington and Oregon coasts. That layout, IMO, belongs in "marina queens" and boats engaged in the charter trade.

The age of your kids will also have to be taken into consideration, because kids, depending on age (and their parents' competence as teachers of seamanship) can be either useful crew or a worrisome distraction. Remember that kids that are thrilled out of their minds at 20 knots are very often bored out of those same minds at 6 knots :-)

You might also like to consider that the annual ownership costs of a 20 foot Bayliner (kept at home on a trailer I assume) will be something of a triviality compared with the ownership costs of the sort of sailboat you mention. It's not the acquisition cost of a competent cruising boat that matters so much, it's the annual ownership costs, not all of which are obvious to a new sailor. You will find that one of our members occasionally posts a summary of his ownership and cruising costs. You may find that useful.

Again: Welcome. And don't hesitate to ask specific questions. You will find no dearth of opinion on this forum :-)!

Cheers

TrentePieds
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Old 11-12-2020, 12:35   #10
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Re: We need a bigger boat...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
4kids:

Welcome aboard CF :-) Are you doing your VHF via the Power Squadrons? I assume, since you already have the Bayliner, that you already have your PCOC.

Below are some remarks, from one Vancouverite to another, to set you thinking:

TrentePieds

This is exactly the kind of sound advice I'm open to receiving - and from a fellow Vancouverite no less (I may take you up on that offer for a leisurely weekend of training one of these days...). Thank you!

Yes, I've had my PCOC for the last year and have probably spent between 100-150 hours on our local lakes and up Indian Arm. VHF is coming through Simply Sailing in January and I am looking into Coopers for Basic Powerboat as well as their docking and anchoring clinics and their online coastal navigation. Not to mention the online clinics and resource study I do on my own these days. I'm like a sponge.

Ultimately we're committed to our current boat and current plan to learn everything we can about boating and our local waters over the next two seasons. I'm especially looking forward to those encounters at docs, local marinas, island beaches...etc with people who will help guide the next decision or teach you something new.

Bottom line is still, however, whatever the next boat, if we want to sleep in it comfortably on a longer voyage it's got to accomodate the six of us and ultimatelly be... you guessed it...

A bigger boat!
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Old 11-12-2020, 13:50   #11
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Re: We need a bigger boat...

Ah, so! SIX of you, eh :-)?

Since you are looking several seasons into the future I am guessing that the oldest child is now, oh, let's say, 13YOA, and from there we step down in 2-year steps, i.e. to 11, 9 and 7 YOA. That's puts you and the kids' mom at around 40-ish at the present time. Irrelevant you say? No not at all!

Looking forward to the time when you ship out for where the coconuts grow - what is your watch rotation gonna be? How many kids, and of what sex, will be ready to take a watch on deck? How is everyone gonna get sufficient kip to handle the discombobulation of normal life and body functions that is the inevitable consequence of being on passage, particularly when Poseidon got up on the wrong side of the bed? Sleep deprivation and anxiety tends to generate downright atavistic behaviour in many people, with women and kiddie-winks generally being more vulnerable than men. So it's important to have a sea berth where the one "next up" on watch can sleep undisturbedly for the entire watch prior to that person's watch on deck, and to have places where the rest of the off-watch can hibernate in safety.

A sea-berth needs to be no more than 27" wide, and long enuff for the longest bod aboard to stretch out fully. That would be you, no doubt, so you need this berth, the "pilot berth", to be 6'6" long. This berth has strict locational requirements. Ideally it 1) needs to be where the motion of the boat is least, i.e. midships and 2) it needs to be where through-cabin traffic doesn't bump it and disturb the sleeper. A further requirement is that it must be so appointed that the occupant can't get thrown out when the boat thrashes about. As it will. Normally this is accomplished by means of something called a lee-cloth. And that is why the queen size, walk around Winnebago style bed in the "master's stateroom" so beloved of marketers and the glossy mags just doesn't cut it for serious voyaging. Indian Arm, and even Howe Sound won't demonstrate that for you, but if you care to nip around Cape Scott you might very well learn that lesson. Best to learn it in a boat you haven't already paid good money for :-)!

So where do you stow the rest of the crew? And make no mistake: They DO need to be securely stowed and made fast for sleeping. And working on deck they STILL need to be made fast! Well, apply what I said above to a clear-eyed analysis of the arrangement plans you see in the brochures and work it out for yourself :-)! You'll come to the conclusion that the forepeak is prolly not the best place to stow 'em.

Where do you stow the clobber for 6 people? And the boat's OWN essential clobber? Most cookie-cutter boats aimed at the mass market, fungible as they are, are WOEFULLY short of stowage for clobber, exactly because the marketers pay the designers to squeeze in too many berths for the size of hull, or, if you prefer, for the boat's displacement. It's the Winnebago syndrome again.

Now here, just for fun, are some cogitations by a well known yacht designer. There are no absolute truths to be found anywhere in the realm of seafaring, but this man's thoughts as expressed in his designs and his ruminations are worth giving a butcher's:

Articles on Yacht Design and Boat Building

Scull around there for a few hours and just let "stuff" osmose. Then you will be in a position to ask informed questions about this one of his design features and that. Doing so will put you in the right frame of mind to begin to select a vessel suitable for your very own purposes. :-).

Cheers

TP
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Old 11-12-2020, 14:38   #12
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Re: We need a bigger boat...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
Ah, so! SIX of you, eh :-)?

Since you are looking several seasons into the future I am guessing that the oldest child is now, oh, let's say, 13YOA, and from there we step down in 2-year steps, i.e. to 11, 9 and 7 YOA. That's puts you and the kids' mom at around 40-ish at the present time. Irrelevant you say? No not at all!


... Where do you stow the clobber for 6 people? And the boat's OWN essential clobber? Most cookie-cutter boats aimed at the mass market, fungible as they are, are WOEFULLY short of stowage for clobber, exactly because the marketers pay the designers to squeeze in too many berths for the size of hull, or, if you prefer, for the boat's displacement.

Cheers

TP

You're not far off Trente. Oldest are the twins (10) then a 7 year old... so far all girls. Then there's the boy. He's 4. We've still got a lot of growing to do before we even think about turning left at Cape Scott

I had to ask The Google about "Clobber" That's a new one. I'm assuming this is all our clothing, food and sundries along with the boat's spare parts for just about everything (extra sails, ropes, motor parts, 30y.o. scotch?)
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Old 11-12-2020, 15:39   #13
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Re: We need a bigger boat...

Quote: "... 'Clobber' That's a new one..."

Not for nothing is this BRITISH Columbia ;-)! And as for the scotch, what I said about stowing the kiddie-winks securely, that goes a fortiori for the scotch!

Many, many years ago, I went to the old Citizenship Court on Georgia Street and swore allegiance to HM. I was asked, by way of testing my fitness to leave my "DP" status behind, how many provinces there are in this 'ere Colony. "Nine", said I unhesitatingly. Being then struck instantly by an awareness of my fallibility, I smiled broadly and added "And the Nation of Quebec". Hizzoner's eyebrow went back into it's normal position, and I walked out of there with my shiny new certificate to prove that I was now one of us.

As I was bimbling along Georgia Street towards Burrard, I came by the bar in the hotel on the corner there, and was struck by the thought: "I'd really like a rye just now!". So there must have been SOMETHING in the laying-on of hands :-)!

TP
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Old 11-12-2020, 19:00   #14
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Re: We need a bigger boat...

With three girls and a young boy, something like a classic trawler might work. They often have a double and a single in the aft stateroom, and the three girls could sleep in the vee berth with the filled. Huge mosh pit up there. Would work for several years.

Would be a blast.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...assic-3226020/

Peter
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