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Old 03-12-2017, 10:43   #121
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Re: Old broad introducing herself...

Hello Wendy and all
Early in our conversation I made the outrageous statement that modern “cruising yachts” are grievously under-rigged because they aren't really cruising yachts at all, but mere racing yachts doing the best they can to serve in a rôle for which their genetic inheritance makes them ill suited.

Building on that theme I thot I'd post a clip of a Galway hooker racing off the west coast of Ireland. These hookers are so absolutely lovely to look at that they bring tears to my eyes :-) And as you will see, they carry a huge amount of canvas and do it well. Later, I'll put before you some thoughts about “rigs for cruisers”.

The hookers are relevant to what you wish to do for a number of reasons: They evolved to handle the waters of the Irish west coast, the coasts of Connemara and Galway. The water there is as unforgiving as are the waters off the Hebrides and off the coast of Norway. Hookers are about 40 feet in length, i.e. they are the very size that you are contemplating, though they are of a rig and of a “model” (hull shape) that it is unlikely you will have contemplated heretofore. They are commodious because their purpose was to carry cargo. Obviously, if they can carry cargo enuff to earn their keep, they could, if decked, easily carry all the furniture and clobber that a cruising woman needs :-).

Apart from being open boats, sans a deck, they differ significantly from “modern cruisers” by the fact that they DON'T have keels, in the sense we've become accustomed to thinking of keels, and they carry their ballast within their hulls rather than bolted on underneath. This makes them able to “take the ground”, i.e. to be run up on the beach, wherefore they don't need travel lifts and other fancy, expensive boat yard gear for such simple tasks as scraping barnacles and bottom painting. You do that right on the beach at low tide. This is a time-honoured method called “careening”. If you don't finish on one tide, you just wait for the next. I have bottom-painted many a boat on a “tide grid” which comes to the same thing. Surely, if you are wanting to go cruising on a budget where the coconuts grow, the ability to “take the ground” would be a boon?

However, as hookers are open boats, you can obviously swamp them and have them sink under you. The remedy for that is obvious: Just deck the boat! I believe that one of them has, if fact, been decked over and fitted out for cruising, though I haven't been able to find pictures of her. Well now, if you do do that, then in many respects you have something that approximates the “pilot cutters” of yore, such as the Falmouth Cutter of which Larry and Lin Pardy's Seraffyn is the best known modern example. The working Falmouth pilot boats were also 40 feet in length or a little better. Seraffyn is a scaled down, modernized version, designed by Lyle Hess. The Pardys took her around the world in the 1960s, as you probably already know, and they did it without an engine. Seraffyn's progenitors, the pilot cutters of the English Channel, had evolved to keep the sea in any weather on one of the worst coasts anywhere. So does that not speak well for the Falmouth Cutter as a generic type for cruising?

And, similarly, Colin Archer's famous “Redningsskoite” (“rescue vessel” in English) of a hundred and thirty years ago (also a tad more than 40 feet in length) was in essence a decked hooker. These boats had the dual purpose firstly of taking pilots to “windbags” (big square-rigged cargo ships) that were waiting off-shore to be guided into harbour, and secondly (and even more importantly on THAT coast!) of standing out to sea, pounding, close hauled, into wind and wave, to rescue people from merchantmen in trouble on the craggy Norwegian coast when the wind comes tearing down from Iceland and Greenland howling like a thousand demented banshees! A yacht designer by the name of William Atkin, a modest man who didn't claim to be a “naval architect” by styled himself as a mere “yacht designer”, produced a number of crusing yachts based on the Redningsskoite. Of these, his “Ingrid” design may well be the one of which the greatest number has been built, and “Ingrid”s are frequently available for a modest dollar.

All the above, and the clip of American Mor, is support of my contention that modern cruising boats are under-rigged or, as I like to say, “permanently reefed”. You will note that all the types I have cited have, in their full sail-plan, substantially more canvas than do modern boats. In further support of that contention, I will, in the next few days, as opportunity affords, post for you some sail plans of representative vessels.

Cheers :-)

TP
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Old 03-12-2017, 13:05   #122
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Re: Old broad introducing herself...

TP, your romanticism is endless, and your knowledge of designs of the past perhaps extensive, but if you are seriously recommending that an aging, inexperienced sailor (of either sex) would be well advised to consider and buy such a vessel... well, the nicest thing I can say is that I disagree.

These old boats evolved to do specific jobs and do them well, but in the hands of very experienced, tough, hard men, men who had grown up on the sea and who were well used to a life that would be considered bare survival in harsh conditions today. Further, they require ongoing maintenance that requires skills that are vanishing, and that cuts into the time available for enjoying the life.

The modern cruising yacht that you so despise has evolved, too... do do a job more in keeping with Wendy's plans... and with comforts more in keeping with modern expectations. By that I don't mean air conditioning, endless fresh water and flat screen TVs in every cabin. Rather I mean a boat with a deck that does not leak, a hull that does not require recaulking now and then and is immune to shipworm, a rudder that can be moved by a person of limited strength and sails that can be managed by a single person of average ability. Oh... and a reliable engine. Even the Pardeys (for whom I have both respect for their abilities and disrespect for the advice that all cruisers should emulate them) ended up with a form of mechanical propulsion for their yacht. The world has changed even if the sea has not, and there are many places where one simply can not legally sail into and out of harbours. When considering boats of the size Wendy wants, rowing or sculling isn't very practical, and asking for tows is a shabby practice...

So, Wendy, if you are still reading this diatribe, be aware that at least one experienced, older cruiser has a differing opinion about these subjects, and that, if asked, will expound on what might be a good sort of boat for you. BUT, at this stage of your life, IMO you shouldn't be too concerned with what sort of boat you will end up with. By the time you have learned basic sailing skills, and then spent some time actually sailing, you will have a much better idea of what is important to you. That's the time to get into the nitty gritty of boat selection.

And BTW, TP, I also disagree that modern boats are all undercanvassed. I'll be happy to do some light air sailing against any of the crab crushers that you love so much, and with only Ann and I as crew.

Jim

PS I will agree that many traditional boats are pretty to look at. I'm involved in the Wooden Boat Festival here in Tasmania, and the eye candy that is displayed at each event is wonderful to behold... but not so wonderful to maintain in that glowing perfection.
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Old 03-12-2017, 13:26   #123
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pirate Re: Old broad introducing herself...

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Originally Posted by Wendy Ann View Post
Honestly, I don't yet know how I would climb a mast - I'll have to leave that decision pending further thought (and investigation). Sounds like I would do well to stay away from ATN mast climbers though. 😁
Wendy Ann.. fit mast steps.. bugga all those silly things that swing around..
Welcome to CF..
The Old Bugga.
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Old 03-12-2017, 16:10   #124
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Re: Old broad introducing herself...

Jim,

I'm not advocating that anyone do anything at all except THINK about why things are as they are. It is very clear to me, and surely it must be to you, that Wendy is not a woman to take any one person's - let alone man's - opinion for anything :-)

So unlax :-)! Wendy will find a boat she likes, and then you and everyone else, even I, can address that boat if we are asked. Until then, a little historical background will harm no-one :-)

Cheers, Mate :-)!

TP
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Old 03-12-2017, 17:26   #125
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Re: Old broad introducing herself...

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Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
@ # 116

Well that obviously didn't do it. Let's see if this will :-)



TP
That was lovely to watch thank you TP (the music made it all that much more grand too).
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Old 03-12-2017, 17:30   #126
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Re: Old broad introducing herself...

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Wendy Ann.. fit mast steps.. bugga all those silly things that swing around..
Welcome to CF..
The Old Bugga.
Boatman - The Old Bugga ) - thank you - mast steps it'll be (no silly swinging things). Thanks for the welcome.
Cheers
Wendy
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Old 03-12-2017, 17:50   #127
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Re: Old broad introducing herself...

@ Jim #122
[QUOTE=Jim Cate;2529517] "TP, your romanticism is endless, and your knowledge of designs of the past perhaps extensive, but if you are seriously recommending that an aging, inexperienced sailor (of either sex) would be well advised to consider and buy such a....
So, Wendy, if you are still reading this diatribe, be aware that at least one experienced, older cruiser has a differing opinion about these subjects, and that, if asked, will expound on what might be a good sort of boat for you. BUT, at this stage of your life, IMO you shouldn't be too concerned with what sort of boat you will end up with..."
-------------------

Thank you Jim - still here, still reading this diatribe with considerable enjoyment, fascinated by TP's romanticism and knowledge, and I don't really think he's recommending I buy an impractical sort of sailboat of the kind he loves and describes. So not to worry, I'm not going to go overboard (apt turn of phrase).

I do love to row by the way...

Thank you though - I most certainly will come to you for practical advice when I'm at that stage in the actual boat buying process - (assuming I ever get there and this is not all a mad pipe dream). I do value your well seasoned knowledge.
Much appreciated.
Wendy

PS: making a mess of this reply, mucking up the quotes bit so edited to include the post number to which I'm replying.
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Old 03-12-2017, 18:08   #128
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Re: Old broad introducing herself...

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Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
Jim,

I'm not advocating that anyone do anything at all except THINK about why things are as they are. It is very clear to me, and surely it must be to you, that Wendy is not a woman to take any one person's - let alone man's - opinion for anything :-)

So unlax :-)! Wendy will find a boat she likes, and then you and everyone else, even I, can address that boat if we are asked. Until then, a little historical background will harm no-one :-)

Cheers, Mate :-)!

TP
TP - thank you for this - you are so right. Very much appreciate your take on all of this. The snippets of history I find fascinating, I'm enjoying reading about things I would otherwise have no inkling of...and thank you for your confidence in my capacity to make my own decisions - but of course I'll come back to you - and to Jim - for advice when I need it - meanwhile, I'll continue to enjoy dreaming - thank you for encouraging me to do just that )

Jim - your voice of reason and words of wisdom balances well with TP's unbridled romanticism - I'll need you both.
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Old 03-12-2017, 18:24   #129
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Re: Old broad introducing herself...

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Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
Hello Wendy and all
Early in our conversation I made the outrageous statement that modern “cruising yachts” are grievously under-rigged because they aren't really cruising yachts at all, but mere racing yachts doing the best they can to serve in a rôle for which their genetic inheritance makes them ill suited.

Building on that theme I thot I'd post a clip of a Galway hooker racing off the west coast of Ireland. These hookers are so absolutely lovely to look at that they bring tears to my eyes.......

Cheers :-)

TP
TP: that was a wonderful read, thank you. If you don't already write - books, stories, articles, anything - you should consider doing so. If are a writer, could you point me to where I could find your work? Seriously.

Wendy
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Old 03-12-2017, 19:11   #130
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Re: Old broad introducing herself...

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Only thing more expensive to own than a big boat, is a big OLD Boat.
Amen to that. It hurts in so many ways. I must be a masochist. Yet I still love the old girl.
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Old 03-12-2017, 20:23   #131
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Re: Old broad introducing herself...

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Wendy Ann, oh....do I have a special treat for you. Quite some time ago I ran across a video late one night watching youtube. This lady...possibly late 70's...a woman who had lived aboard a, 30foot something, sailboat had her husband pass away. She became depressed and lost her creative drive and passion for life and art. She decided to get back to life on board her and her husband's boat. I want you to watch it. It is exactly what you need to see.


The human spirit is intrepid. You can do this thing you desire. Do not let anyone or anything stand in your way. It is only committing and stepping forward. It is only in the doing.

If this woman can do it....I can do it....you can do it. God bless you in your travels. Watch her many videos...she is a rare gem. She is also an incredible artist. Watch how she comes out of the cabin and finds her tender flipped upside down with her 2 stroke engine immersed in the brine. Watch how she overcomes this nightmare. It is a lesson to anyone to see her intelligence and resolve.




https://youtu.be/WIHJEEJSIz8
Alan - thank you for stopping by, for your encouragement, optimism, and the special treat in introducing me to the YouTube video clip of that incredible woman who overcame all she had stacked against her - this is just what I need, right now, in this time and place. I haven't yet watched the video; am saving it for later, but watch it I will (along with her many other videos).
In the meantime, thank you for cheering me along.

Wendy Ann
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