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Old 16-09-2023, 09:57   #1
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Newbie Here - Hello!

Hello Sailors!



Name is Daniel, I've been looking at and learning as much as I can about boating as much as I can from my land locked location here in Arizona.



Objective:

I'd like to find a Live Aboard, capable of cruising both the Great Loop and Caribbean Islands.


I've started to find contradictions in information, so I figured I'd come here, and start to learn from experienced sailors, and interact, and just integrate into the life style.



I've been looking at Trollers? (Trawler? So confusing...) I had switched to them, after my research determined that they were more stable for blue waters. Sailboats, as I understand are more stable of course, but unfortunately would not be something I can handle solo (on top of zero experience and current life limitations).


So, there it is. Look forward to learning all I can. Any resources you can point me to would be greatly appreciated. I look forward to talkin more with you all.
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Old 16-09-2023, 18:00   #2
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Re: Newbie Here - Hello!

Welcome aboard Daniel! Good luck in your ventures and adventures! Donít count out sailboats yet! They arenít that hard and they are pretty fun too!
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Old 16-09-2023, 19:01   #3
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Re: Newbie Here - Hello!

Welcome Daniel :-)

Nothing confusing about it :-)!

TROLLERS fish with baited hooks on lines dragged behind them. In these waters (the west coast of Canada) they fish for high value fish like salmon that tend to move fairly near the surface.

TRAWLERS fish with nets dragged over the bottom of the sea and fish for bottom feeding fish of lower value such as pollock. Trawlers have destroyed the fish stocks in the North Sea because their nets - the trawls - destroy the kelp beds where the young fish grow to maturity.

The appellation "trawler" is often given, for marketing purposes, to your basic "dime a dozen" power boats with displacement hulls, rather than planing hulls. Planing hulls is what speedboats have. Calling a motor boat a "trawler" is what I call "selling into a market of ignorance". But that's is obviously where the money is made :-)!

Your first job, in pursuing your dream, must be to eliminate the ignorance of seafaring that is the ineluctable corollary of living in Arizona. But don't worry, you've come to the right place :-)

Your conclusion that "trawlers" are safer in the open ocean than sailboats is just plain wrong. We can explain to you just why that is, and if you let us, you will have taken the first steps towards eliminating that ignorance.

You can easily, all by your lonesome, handle a sailboat of, say, 36 or 38 feet LOA. Plenty big enuff to live on. The basic handling of it I could teach you in a long day on the water. But to become a competent skipper takes a lot longer than that. Lots of us in this forum have been at it for over half a century and we are still learning. Me, I came out of the womb sculling a skiff well over eighty years ago, and if I don't lose my marbles, or my balance on deck, I expect to be at it for another forty years :-)

Do yourself a favour: Read The Proper Yacht by Arthur Beiser. You can get it from Amazon. Reading that book will set you on the right course in how to think about sailing yachts.

All the best :-)!

TrentePieds
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Old 17-09-2023, 10:18   #4
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Re: Newbie Here - Hello!

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Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
Welcome Daniel :-)

Nothing confusing about it :-)!

TROLLERS fish with baited hooks on lines dragged behind them. In these waters (the west coast of Canada) they fish for high value fish like salmon that tend to move fairly near the surface.

TRAWLERS fish with nets dragged over the bottom of the sea and fish for bottom feeding fish of lower value such as pollock. Trawlers have destroyed the fish stocks in the North Sea because their nets - the trawls - destroy the kelp beds where the young fish grow to maturity.

The appellation "trawler" is often given, for marketing purposes, to your basic "dime a dozen" power boats with displacement hulls, rather than planing hulls. Planing hulls is what speedboats have. Calling a motor boat a "trawler" is what I call "selling into a market of ignorance". But that's is obviously where the money is made :-)!

Your first job, in pursuing your dream, must be to eliminate the ignorance of seafaring that is the ineluctable corollary of living in Arizona. But don't worry, you've come to the right place :-)

Your conclusion that "trawlers" are safer in the open ocean than sailboats is just plain wrong. We can explain to you just why that is, and if you let us, you will have taken the first steps towards eliminating that ignorance.

You can easily, all by your lonesome, handle a sailboat of, say, 36 or 38 feet LOA. Plenty big enuff to live on. The basic handling of it I could teach you in a long day on the water. But to become a competent skipper takes a lot longer than that. Lots of us in this forum have been at it for over half a century and we are still learning. Me, I came out of the womb sculling a skiff well over eighty years ago, and if I don't lose my marbles, or my balance on deck, I expect to be at it for another forty years :-)

Do yourself a favour: Read The Proper Yacht by Arthur Beiser. You can get it from Amazon. Reading that book will set you on the right course in how to think about sailing yachts.

All the best :-)!

TrentePieds



I added the book to my Amazon to read! I CAN learn to sail here in AZ, I've looked at them a bit. However, in order to have the wife sign off on a Live Aboard life style, Sailing, for the most part, is off the table. Unfortunately.



Thats why I started looking at powerboats. I settled on Trollers... Or Trawlers... (Ugh, marketing speak...) Look, I'm tryin to do this as efficiently as possible. lol Part of why I'm here, I need to cut through the BS, so I'm going to those who live the life, to get first hand experience. What pushed me over the edge, and finally sign up here, was looking at fuel efficiencies with power boats. I started to see contradicting information between hulls and such... BUT, then started to see contradictions in stabilization. Yes, sail boats are more stable over all. I need to find a balance with my eventual needs, and need to do so efficiently. Finding resources that don't lie, or push a marketing campaign, is something I need to invest time in.



Yes, living in Florida or out that direction anyway, would help. As of now, the lakes around here will have to suffice, or the Cali coast worse case scenario. I've been lurkin' on this forum for awhile. Been researching this life style for years (I dream lol).



So, please, yes, teach me! Is basically what I'm getting at.
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Old 17-09-2023, 10:39   #5
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Re: Newbie Here - Hello!

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The appellation "trawler" is often given, for marketing purposes, to your basic "dime a dozen" power boats with displacement hulls, rather than planing hulls.
TrentePieds
Ouch! That hurts and may not be entirely accurate.

Greg.
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Old 17-09-2023, 10:44   #6
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Re: Newbie Here - Hello!

Sailboats are a great choice because they don't need all that expensive fuel and theoretically are not limited in range by it. They are more involved in regard to handling and the fact that you will most likely be outside while operating it, but there are so many advantages to the sail boats.

Taking classes is invaluable. You can fly or drive to San Diego and get a weekend class to start with.
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Old 17-09-2023, 10:46   #7
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Re: Newbie Here - Hello!

Welcome aboard!
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Old 17-09-2023, 10:54   #8
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Re: Newbie Here - Hello!

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Welcome aboard!



Thank you! Look forward to gettin my learn on!
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Old 18-09-2023, 01:03   #9
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Re: Newbie Here - Hello!

Shadow Tiger I have spewed way more on a trawler than on a yacht. Yachts have a different, slightly better motion if you ask me. There's nothing worse than being in a trawler beam on to swell rolling gunnel to gunnel.
Tiger the key thing in boating is to find a boat that's not going to send you broke. Boating is all about paying by the foot, so the shorter your boat the shorter your bills.
Cheers
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Old 18-09-2023, 01:32   #10
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Re: Newbie Here - Hello!

You say you are married and your wife says no to a sailboat. Do you also have children or plan to have them? The amount of space depends upon both the number of people on board and the individual needs for space. Some people like small space, some people like bigger space.

Is your wife actively involved in your boat search? It would be my recommendation that she be as involved as possible. The greater the involvement, typically the better the long term outcome....

The Great Loop, while it can be done in a sailboat, you have to basically run the sailboat as a motor boat for most of that trip as you have to take the mast down. Some people have taken sailboats and permanently removed the mast and basically made their sailboats motor boats to do that trip. There is some decent logic to that as typically a sailboat under motor uses minimal fuel. But you can find trawlers (sorry, not sure I know the right term, I've just always called displacement hull motor boats for this type of use trawlers) that are quite fuel efficient.

I'm a believer in getting the smallest boat possible for your comfort level needs. A lot of folk think they want the biggest boat they can afford but I find the smaller the boat, the easier to handle, the lower the costs, and more fun to run. You can get into smaller spots, mistakes are easier to handle... - I could go on -

dj
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Old 18-09-2023, 06:40   #11
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Re: Newbie Here - Hello!

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You say you are married and your wife says no to a sailboat. Do you also have children or plan to have them? The amount of space depends upon both the number of people on board and the individual needs for space. Some people like small space, some people like bigger space.

Is your wife actively involved in your boat search? It would be my recommendation that she be as involved as possible. The greater the involvement, typically the better the long term outcome....

The Great Loop, while it can be done in a sailboat, you have to basically run the sailboat as a motor boat for most of that trip as you have to take the mast down. Some people have taken sailboats and permanently removed the mast and basically made their sailboats motor boats to do that trip. There is some decent logic to that as typically a sailboat under motor uses minimal fuel. But you can find trawlers (sorry, not sure I know the right term, I've just always called displacement hull motor boats for this type of use trawlers) that are quite fuel efficient.

I'm a believer in getting the smallest boat possible for your comfort level needs. A lot of folk think they want the biggest boat they can afford but I find the smaller the boat, the easier to handle, the lower the costs, and more fun to run. You can get into smaller spots, mistakes are easier to handle... - I could go on -

dj



Excellent set of questions.



While she's aware I've been researching it, and I keep her updated with as much as I can, she is not active in it yet. Mostly because we're not to the point where we need to seriously consider it, or can consider it.



As for size, pay by the foot as mentioned in another post, has been my understanding. No children, atleast not the normal kind. We will have two birds, and their living space needs to consider. I figured, we will need an extra bed for our daughter, because its understood, she will have a place if/when she visits. One of the reasons that we are able to do this, is our daughter will be moving down to Florida area for schooling. I figured, no bigger then 40ft with our needs. Thats our max we can handle and afford. Atleast by my previous research. With how things have changed in the world, might need to cut that down.



If not a troller/trawler, whatever... Then I need different options. Again, mostly just learning here. With that current level of knowledge, I don't see us on a sailboat. Where there's a will, there's a way, for almost anything it seems. I thought, though, the Great Loop couldn't handle sail, because of its keel depth?
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Old 18-09-2023, 07:55   #12
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Re: Newbie Here - Hello!

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Excellent set of questions.



While she's aware I've been researching it, and I keep her updated with as much as I can, she is not active in it yet. Mostly because we're not to the point where we need to seriously consider it, or can consider it.



As for size, pay by the foot as mentioned in another post, has been my understanding. No children, atleast not the normal kind. We will have two birds, and their living space needs to consider. I figured, we will need an extra bed for our daughter, because its understood, she will have a place if/when she visits. One of the reasons that we are able to do this, is our daughter will be moving down to Florida area for schooling. I figured, no bigger then 40ft with our needs. Thats our max we can handle and afford. Atleast by my previous research. With how things have changed in the world, might need to cut that down.



If not a troller/trawler, whatever... Then I need different options. Again, mostly just learning here. With that current level of knowledge, I don't see us on a sailboat. Where there's a will, there's a way, for almost anything it seems. I thought, though, the Great Loop couldn't handle sail, because of its keel depth?
40 feet is big. I was thinking of some trawlers that run in the 28 to 32 foot range. Those are quite good for the great loop, not sure about the Caribbean - I'd let others chime in on that part as I've no experience there.

There is a depth restriction on the great loop, something like 5 or 6 feet, not sure. but for trawlers in the size range you are taking it's not an issue.

The sailboats can't handle the heights of their masts on lots of sections of the Great Loop. So most folk either take them down and make a frame to carry them on deck (kind of a major PITA); ship them to a destination where they will eventually end up (less hassle, but is an expense); or simply get rid of the mast and run the sailboat as a trawler - I personally would just prefer to get a trawler, but talking small boat, this can be done for very little money....

dj
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Old 18-09-2023, 08:37   #13
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Re: Newbie Here - Hello!

Shadow:

I've a longer missive in the works for you, some of the content of which has been touched on in posts above.

But tell us: What, precisely is i you expect to get in a powerboat that you cannot get in a sailboat? I, meself, know very well what those things are - I'm just probing to see what your understanding of those things are :-)!

Since you are already touching on what is affordable, consider this: For a 30 foot half-century old sailboat, you need to set aside a thousand buxamonth just for the keeping and maintaining of her. Because boats are three-dimensional objects, the cost of their keeping rises according to the third power of any increase in length. So if you go from 30 to 45 feet (an increase in dimension by a factor of 1.5) the monthly maintenance allocation needs to be increased to $1,000 X1.5 x1.5 x 1.5 = $3,375.-

That, of course, is a "first approximation", and a lot depends on the particular boat and its equipment. But be warned!!! Obviously a tri-cabin "trawler" powered by a coupla 8.2L,380HP Chrysler Crusader engines is a much more money-hungry beast than is a sailboat powered by a 50HP Perkins, let alone a modest 30-footer powered by a 20HP Beta.

Fore'n'Aft has already warned you that trawlers are MUCH more sick-making than sailboats. Bear that in mind if your wife is gonna go with you when you run away to sea! Very few women LIKE being at sea. Some tolerate it, but generally wives are in the boat either under duress or out of wifely loyalty. Either way, even if they don't say so outright, they hate being there. When the stormy winds do blow and the scattered waters rave, most women are reduced to some seriously atavistic behaviour, so for the sake of your family DO get to know what you are about before you consign your family's cohesion financial fortunes to Neptune's keeping!

Cheers!

Now we can get back to the technical stuff :-)!

TP
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Old 18-09-2023, 09:26   #14
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Re: Newbie Here - Hello!

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Shadow:

I've a longer missive in the works for you, some of the content of which has been touched on in posts above.

But tell us: What, precisely is i you expect to get in a powerboat that you cannot get in a sailboat? I, meself, know very well what those things are - I'm just probing to see what your understanding of those things are :-)!

Since you are already touching on what is affordable, consider this: For a 30 foot half-century old sailboat, you need to set aside a thousand buxamonth just for the keeping and maintaining of her. Because boats are three-dimensional objects, the cost of their keeping rises according to the third power of any increase in length. So if you go from 30 to 45 feet (an increase in dimension by a factor of 1.5) the monthly maintenance allocation needs to be increased to $1,000 X1.5 x1.5 x 1.5 = $3,375.-

That, of course, is a "first approximation", and a lot depends on the particular boat and its equipment. But be warned!!! Obviously a tri-cabin "trawler" powered by a coupla 8.2L,380HP Chrysler Crusader engines is a much more money-hungry beast than is a sailboat powered by a 50HP Perkins, let alone a modest 30-footer powered by a 20HP Beta.

Fore'n'Aft has already warned you that trawlers are MUCH more sick-making than sailboats. Bear that in mind if your wife is gonna go with you when you run away to sea! Very few women LIKE being at sea. Some tolerate it, but generally wives are in the boat either under duress or out of wifely loyalty. Either way, even if they don't say so outright, they hate being there. When the stormy winds do blow and the scattered waters rave, most women are reduced to some seriously atavistic behaviour, so for the sake of your family DO get to know what you are about before you consign your family's cohesion financial fortunes to Neptune's keeping!

Cheers!

Now we can get back to the technical stuff :-)!

TP



Another set of great questions. I started with sail boats, as it is the cheapest method. But then I began to learn about what it would take to sail one, and learned about heeling? I think it is, and was telling the wife about that. And... Yeah, this kinda goes into your later questions and concerns. LOL So I began to research other less abrupt methods of travel. (And yes, heeling mostly occures during travel. And the big thing with sailing, you need wind, and wind leads to waves.) My thinking was, if we need to move, or can plan to move during calmer times, we could have fewer incidents of massive waves and issues. One of the things I was looking at, especially for the Caribbean, is, and I could be wrong here, is that the interior of the Caribbean, is less active then the Atlantic side. (This is from experience, so again, I could be wrong)



Now, keep in mind, "I" understand there are different factors in the types of boats and being underway, nothing is going to be perfectly smooth sailing, regardless of the ship type. SHE understand that too, for the most part. But when a ship is traveling, and it's biggest feature is heeling during travel... That becomes a bit of a "Ehhhh, I don't think so." Moment. We both know storms happen, and it won't be all smooth out there. For the MOST part, from what I've seen, power boat movement, with advanced warning in weather planning, we can minimize our exposure and move more nimbly. Again, could be misled here.



And a correction, I'm thinking two cabins MAX. Not three. Sorry if I led everyone to believe I was thinking three cabins. If I can go smaller, I'm all for that. But I feel two, at minimum. We both understand there will be adjustment time, and I'd like to maybe go on a few smaller craft, as a charter. I've looked at a few, a few times whenever vacation discussions come up. So, I settled on 40 for the cabins, relative ability for stability (depending on of course fins, planers?, ect. yeah, I know, sails and keels are more stable.)
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Old 18-09-2023, 09:43   #15
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Re: Newbie Here - Hello!

I think it's important that you and your wife find out if you like boating and/or sailing first. I think "success" at cruising or sailing or whatever stems from falling in love with it early on. And then the next step is to see if you like being out on the ocean. Some find they love it, some don't. If you have a lake nearby and can rent some little sailboats or whatever, let your wife take the helm and see if her eyes light up. If so, you are on the right track.

Heeling is the natural result of the balance of sail and ballast in the keel. The boat will not capsize (that way) even though it seems scary at first. Once heeling and balanced the boat is very stable and comfortable in its ride. Once you understand the forces at work it is a source of joy, not fear.

I knew of a guy, many years ago, who dreamed of sailing the world. He bought a nice 40 footer, outfitted it well (aka spent a lot of money) and headed out for a shakedown cruise around the local islands. Before getting to the islands (all of 20 miles away) the wind and waves piped up a bit, he got uncomfortable and a bit sick so he came home and promptly put the boat up for sale.

I often suggest folks get a fun small sailboat to learn on. A Laser is a good choice because it is simple and fast and safe; you can capsize it and it is not a big deal to recover. You can learn in one afternoon the basic principles of how to make a wing work to power a boat and have a blast doing it! If you both catch the bug then you are off and running.
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