Advice/Ideas/Options for boat purchase.

[Ditch Leroi]

The Sailboat Project




My overall plan: I plan on purchasing a project boat in the next 2-3 years and then allotting 4-6 months to make her sea worthy。
I would appreciate any opinions ideas etc in regard to what I have written below, nothing is set in stone as far as what is within my budget. I am more than happy to hear different thoughts and am glad to gain knowledge and insight. I would much appreciate your help recreating my plan and accomplishing it. Much of the plans success relies a lot on my personals skills (ones I possess and ones I will gain through experience and study) to complete the boat and my ability to choose: quality surveyors, a good boat with potential, sound workers that will be doing the work that I am not qualifed to do persistence and the desire for the freedom, of the seas.

Things I am aware of: There are some good non-project boats out there that can be cheaper in the long run compared to project boats. But I am a “start from scratch” (or as close to as budget allows) type of person I want to know the insides and outs of the boat, I want to be familiar with her.

What I am leaning towards now and why:
Length: 45 ft
Why: comfortable cruising size
Things I am aware of: more boat more maintenance, higher upkeep costs
Keel : Full keel
Why: Strength, shallower draught compared to the other option that I am looking at -fin-keel. I plan on going to uncharted waters. Feel at ease that when: she is hauled she will not have to rely strongly on the pads and if I ran her aground.
Things I am aware of: can be heavier and less maneuverable than fin keel.
Hull Material Steel
Why: Strength, personal preference, I prefer working with metal over glass and don’t feel: wood, aluminum or ferro-cement is an option. I feel I would prefer working with rust opposed to osmoses.
Things I am aware of: importance of the initial coats (interior and exterior) for: rust deterrent, hull longevity and ease of maintenance.
Rigging: factional rigged sloop
Why: ease of sailing, simplicity
Things I am aware of: less sail options.
What boats I have been looking at: 45 ft range Bruce Roberts
Why: Price, and availability, the boats I have looked at have been striped in the inside or unfinished, so I would be more able to see hidden problems.
Things I am aware of: home built boats can have many short comings such as poor: welds, paint/zinc/epoxy application, material used, inexperienced ideas or designs.
What I will be doing with it: Cruising many destinations on the seas. No singular venues. Destinations of interest: Island hoping, south pacific, blue water, open seas, coastal, northern and southern latitudes and the Med.
How many people will be sailing it: For the most part 2. But I would like her to have 6 comfortable berths.
My skills (in order of expertise): woodworking, mechanical, plumbing, metal work, electrical
Budget: $50,000

A boat similar to this one is what I have in mind: http://s514.photobucket.com/albums/t...s%2044%20Pics/

I was weary of the bilge rust and the fin-keel
Overall things I am weary about with my choice of boat so far:
A.Initial coats/sealings how to tell how well they were applied and with what material.
B. I don’t mind having a slower boat I am not out for speed/racing. But I certainly don’t want an unmaneuverable slug like motor sailor!! I would like to rely on the motor as little as possible.
Random info: I would like to have a sailing dinghy.

[swagman]

G'Day Ditch and welcome,

Sounds like you have a plan and I'll wish you all the best in moving it forward. When it is all done and you sail away you'll sit back and remember these days of research and learning. For lots of people they are great times - so be sure not to waste them.
Enjoy

JOHN

[SkiprJohn]

Aloha Ditch,
Welcome aboard! Looks like you've outlined a pretty good plan. Good luck in your search. I personally prefer fiberglass for maintenance ease, 36ft LOD or less and an aft cockpit but that's why so many different kinds of boats were built to satisfy folks with different preferences.
From experience, the hull is just a drop in the bucket compared to the work and expense involved in outfitting the rest of the boat. It kind of is like building a home and deciding on what kind of foundation you want. The real expense is everything that comes after that.
This is a good place to bounce ideas off of sailors so its good to have you posting here.
Kind regards,
JohnL

[Ditch Leroi]

Thanks for your kind words and advice Swagman & SkiprJohn I would love to read your Blog John!!

[Boracay]

My aching muscles are telling me that you have 4-6 years of solid part time work or 2-3 years of full time work (or more) on the Roberts Offshore 44 in the photos.

I would rate the Roberts more as a motor sailer than a sailer. Very nice with a "big" engine.

$50k is not likely to do this project. It would be a good idea to plan on much, much more.

But look on the bright side. In six years time you could be finding out that the anodes are too small (4 kg is nice), too few and do not cover some important areas (like bottom of keel and skeg).

If you like sailing then I really would look for one of the nicer 36'ers in fibreglass.

[Ditch Leroi]

Hi Boracay

So you presently have a Roberts 44? I would love to hear as much as possible about her, what you wanted out of her and what you got etc. (please feel free to send me to another link or blog etc. if you have already written info that you would think pertinent) Why would you rate the boat (the 44 BR that I was looking at) as motor sailor, that is certainly something (motor sailor)that I what to stay away from. I am well aware of the necessity of using the motor at certain times but I would like to rely on the wind as much as possible with a boat in the 45 range as possible. Do you feel with a 45ft steel boat that is unrealistic or if not what would I be sacrificing.

1. Can you make a quick detailed list of what work on that particular Roberts 44 you feel would be time consuming? 2-3 years is a long time I would love to understand fully why you feel it would take that long.

“My aching muscles are telling me that you have 4-6 years of solid part time work or 2-3 years of full time work (or more) on the Roberts Offshore 44 in the photos.

2 Also here I would like to know why these funds would not be sufficient. What are some of the big costs that I should take into consideration?

$50k is not likely to do this project. It would be a good idea to plan on much, much more.

3

“If you like sailing then I really would look for one of the nicer 36'ers in fibreglass.”

I understand your suggestions fully, 1 being metal’s preparation on a “project boat can be a horror, 2 why not go smaller/cheaper. The benefits that I am looking for between 45 and 36 is room and the fact that I will be doing long term cruising. I also would like to ask your opinion about these 2 scenarios A. purchasing a 36’er in glass and getting her sail worthy (time + money) and sailing her for a couple of years then getting a bigger boat for longer more comfortable cruising B. or sticking to the plan posted above. What would be the pros and cons of either.

ThanksJ Ditch

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Ditch Leroi

Hi Boracay

So you presently have a Roberts 44? I would love to hear as much as possible about her,

ThanksJ Ditch

Hey Ditch, you're not listening! Boracay said "look for one of the nicer 36'ers in fibreglass"

The other thing thats weird is you say you would like an unseaworthy boat?! Because "I am a “start from scratch” ...type of person"

Then your ambition has nothing to do with cruisng. You ambition is in boat rebuilding.

John off Swagman says looking for a boat is a great time. Like hell! (no disrespect to John!) Getting the payment done, getting on board and chucking the ropes on the wharf is the good bit!

Ditch you may need to really sit down and asses your goals... find the ONE goal you most want IN THE WORLD and then work towards that one goal.

If your goal is to repair boats, go do it. But its a totally differnt goal than going cruising

All the best.


Mark

[Ditch Leroi]

Mark

My goal is to be on the ocean cruising. My ambition is certainly not rebuildingJ but is to be in a boat that is sound. So yes I did miss Boracay’s point about finding a nicer 36’er. Many projects in life I feel it’s better (better meaning cheaper in the long and with a better end product, less long term maintenance, and longer life) to start from scratch or close to opposed to slowly adding or updating. But maybe it could be different with boats? Of course I want to go cruising and not be a boat repairmanJ, but it is very important to me that I make the right purchasing decision towards my goal and not take the wrong course. Do you feel a 36’s in my price range ($50,000) has the potential to be a long term cruiser? And if so what would be the pros and cons opposed to a bigger boat (45’)

[Boracay]

1. See my bog (bottom of this post).
2. My estimation is that I am over $70k into this project. Major items so far - new engine ($20k+), marina & slip fees ($20k+), Wood, plywood, paint, epoxy and interior fittings ($20k+), Specialised tradespersons ($2k+), tools ($3k+). I have a box full of receipts that I will tally one day. My local chandlers and hardware store know me very well by now.
3. My suggestion of a 36'er is because I feel that with your time and budget constraints it is doable. If you love the feel of wind in your sails there are some nice boats out there.

My Roberts Offshore 44 is a big heavy lunk, it might be comfortable and others seem to stay out of my way but I've only put the sails up once. It is a very nice boat to motor around Sydney Harbour and up the coast.

My wife feels safe onboard and I don't worry about the odd scratch, which is why I brought her.

"Do you feel a 36’s in my price range ($50,000) has the potential to be a long term cruiser? And if so what would be the pros and cons opposed to a bigger boat (45’)"
Other are better able to answer this question than me but my experience would suggest that unless you have some overwhelming need for a big boat 36' is the way to go.

As an example of a boat that I think that you would enjoy have a look at 34' Beneteau Idylle

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Ditch Leroi

Do you feel a 36’s in my price range ($50,000) has the potential to be a long term cruiser? And if so what would be the pros and cons opposed to a bigger boat (45’)

Less than 8 years old Bneteau 361 in the USA negotiated to less than $50k

I have seen a forum members 361 in Florida and it is absloutly beautiful and sails very well.

These would be ex-charter but they have a long life ahead of them.

You would get more cockpit space than an older desing boat, more interior room.

Its something to think about, research and look at.

When I finally decided that I would go cruising it was just a dream. But then I had an epipheny to actuallt go an do it. When you actually decide what you want, then and only then can you actually go do it.

Your choice is to meet us cruisng on your own yach in the very near future, say 1 year, or in 3, 4 or 5 years time.

What do you want? It really is your choice

We would much prefer to meet you somewhere in 12 months!

Mark
PS I am not saying a Benetuea 361 is a better boat than a 44, all I am saying is do you want to go cruising? Then it might seem attractive

[alaska pirate]

Originally Posted by Boracay

I would rate the Roberts more as a motor sailer than a sailer. Very nice with a "big" engine.

As the owner of a steel Offshore 44, I have to disagree with this statement. Of course, each boat is somewhat unique due to their pedigree. I had the good fortune to find one that was built by a fellow who was very conscious of weight. For instance, Blue Note's keel and lower chine is built from 5mil steel, middle chine 4mil and upper chine and deck 3mil. She performs well against boats of similar dimensions, drawbacks being a lwl somewhat short to her loa, and a rig that doesn't allow real close sheeting. Mine is very competitive with other 25 year old cruisers and a far better sailor than any of the motorsailors I have encountered.

As to the OP, the boat in those photographs isn't even half way done. For comparison, it took a little over two years for the builder of Blue Note working full time to complete the project. If your budget is firm and you want to sail sooner than a year and a half, my advise is to look for a boat that is complete. If you look for a boat that is a distress sale (unwanted inheritance, located in a foreign land, divorce, etc.) and somewhat older, you should be able to find one that you can step aboard with only minor work. Building is way expensive because you are using new materials. Better to buy older, well maintained materials already fashioned into what you ultimately desire.

[Ditch Leroi]

Hey All

I have been checking out the market in the 35-40ft range in fiberglass these past few days. Finding a cruiser that has been outfitted for long term cruising and in my price range and leaving some money left over for some updating and refitting will take some time to find but it will get me out on the water faster in the long run. Writing down my plan and posting it here has been very helpful; I really appreciate your open, honest, strait to the point ideas and opinions. Thank you.

I would like to take a moment to write a bit about what I am aiming to do in the future, so if you have further advice/opinions you would like to share then you could better advise me if you choose. I am now working smart and hard saving money and finishing off a mortgage. I have a mortgage on a house in China and a house in New England (USA) waiting for some finishing touches so it can be like the China house remolded and low maintenance-so I’m able to spend my free time free. I would like to purchase the boat and maybe moor it in Belfast, Maine and sail around New England while I am saving a bit more money over the next few years; at the same time preparing myself and the boat for longer cruises to the above mentioned destinations in the first post. With all loans paid I would like to only work part time or full time and having long stints where I am not working; so I can enjoy life. I would enjoy staying in some of these destinations for long periods of time (that is one of the reasons that I wanted a larger boat) either working or enjoying the nature beauty that presents it self.

[Greenman]

Ditch,

This is a very good log/webpage the link is to his total costs to date on a 44' Gulfstar, if you surf through the rest of the page there is a huge amount of information including logs which detail all sorts of repairs etc.

Good Luck with your hunt.

Costs Of Buying And Cruising On A Boat