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haaho · 08-01-2012, 06:09

Do not get angry with the ignorant newbie

I just don't get it.

Tiki 38 with 2000 kg loading capacity is "An excellent family cruising boat"
Pelican with 2000 kg loading capacity is not suitable for family cruising or living aboard, despite the fact that his designer lived on it for 11 years!

Or Didi is not suitable for crosing Atlantic, but the designer did it several times. Or that her 18mm skin is more fragile than a 12mm skin of a "serious" boats mentioned above.

I hear you, that you do not like these TWO, I just don't get it. Sorry fo being such stubborn smartass

Anyway, thаnks for the books recommendation, I will just start reading

**s/v Jedi** · 08-01-2012, 06:26

Whenever you read that somebody took a 30' boat acoss the Atlantic, or a rowboat, or windsurfer, or swimming etc. etc. just ignore that information, unless you are after silly records and newspaper headlines.

That something can be done doesn't mean it's suitable. It often isn't, which is why it is discussed so much.

Now get a scale and start weighing and calculating what you want to bring along. Include everything from yourselves to clothing, pots and pans, propane bottles, how much water, diesel, gas, dinghy, outboard(s), scuba gear, tools, first aid kit, books, manuals, computers, music, instruments, DVD collection, bicycles, pets, kids and all their stuff etc. etc. Remember it's not just a boat trip but your house for the rest of your life hopefully. Also measure the volume and check that against storage space.

I bet that you're gonna end up with a Dutch or German build steel multi-chine steel boat. I have a good chance to win as it is what 80% or so from your area end up with, for good reasons!

cheers,
Nick.

**minaret** · 08-01-2012, 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by haaho

minaret, you are probably right in general, but I put two particular models here.
One doesn't have an expensive engine but 9hp outboard and does not have keel at all, the other has a lot of build in structures and tanks, and selfmade keel.
About electronics, shure some are expensive, but does not have to be bought at once. How much "stuff" you need is totaly different question.

We grew up under comunism with one channel, B/W TV. Now we've got "the hole package" of "modern shits" , so what...

So which one of these two boats do you prefer?

Defintely the Didi. Partly because I'm just a mono guy, partly because I think the Pelican is hideously ugly like many multi's, and partly because I'm familiar with Dudley Dix' work and like his designs, though he builds too light for my tastes. I'd guess the pelican would be substantially cheaper to outfit, for reasons mentioned earlier (ie no keel, outboard, cheaper to rig). The Didi does have a transom hung rudder, but you still need a quality inboard, mast and rig, ballast keel, propshaft, prop, hatches, portholes, batteries, charger, lighting, running lights, shore power fittings and cord, head with plumbing and tankage, galley stove and sink, rails, stanchions and lifelines, anchors, windlass, chain and rode, and tankage. For cruising I would add solar and/or wind power. When I mentioned electronics earlier, I was speaking more about batteries and wiring the boat for engine , lights, fresh water pump, etc. etc. Not just instrumentation. Wiring is expensive, especially if you are not an electrician. Contact Dudley by e-mail and talk to him about cost if you are interested in this design. I have traded quite a few e-mails with him, he's very communicative and helpful. I would think about looking at the 38 for family cruising though. Once again building the hull is the smallest part of the expense, outfitting costs much more. Outfitting costs for the 38 wont be much more than the 34. Do all the math very carefully before starting, or you may find yourself in over your head. It's very common, there are a great many unfinished boat projects for sale out there. Listen to the people here, many have built before.

haaho · 08-01-2012, 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunDevil

And the question should be to buy a used monohull or build a new multihull. I think for a family going on an extended cruise, a multihull would be more enjoyable.

Thanks for that opinion, and that is what we think too. I wanted to know in which cases (if any) the mono is more suitable.

The cat has a big sister, but it could be triple or more the cost.

Minaret, I chose that design, and to say I shoud not build it because it looks uglu to you, how serious is that

(for me it looks perfect, who cares about an old fashion, aristocratic, g** stuff

)

If there is someone with experience with any of Berd Kohler models please share.

**minaret** · 08-01-2012, 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by haaho

Thanks for that opinion, and that is what we think too. I wanted to know in which cases (if any) the mono is more suitable.

The cat has a big sister, but it could be triple or more the cost.

Minaret, I chose that design, and to say I shoud not build it because it looks uglu to you, how serious is that

(for me it looks perfect, who cares about an old fashion, aristocratic, g** stuff

)

If there is someone with experience with any of Berd Kohler models please share.

Never said you shouldn't build it. You asked my opinion and I gave it to you straight. Obviously many people don't agree with me, or there would be a lot less multi's in the world. If you like it, build it by all means. And if you knew me, you'd think "aristocratic" is a pretty hilarious word to apply to me.

haaho · 08-01-2012, 16:29

I was just kidding

appreciate all opinions

**minaret** · 08-01-2012, 16:32

I know, I could tell by your flowers. I just couldn't let "aristocratic" slide though. Have fun!

barnakiel · 08-01-2012, 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by haaho

(...)

We (wife, 4 years old boy and me) have NO boatin/sailing/even fishing experience at all. But we might be able to finance building a boat in the near or not so near future

(...)

P.S. We want to travel everywere.

OK, so what this means to me, you are not going to build, you are going to have one built for you. (?)

Frankly, because of your P.S. (...'everywhere'...), I would chose none: too small, too delicate. Also, if you want to travel, then I would recommend buying a boat, not building one.

P.S. If you do go for a boat to be built for you then my advice is pick up a reliable, established boatyard that will work to a very well worded contract. Building a boat is an expensive business and you do not want to get stuck with a half-finished ship (that in some legal systems is not actually yours ...).

Good luck!
b.

barnakiel · 08-01-2012, 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by haaho

(...)

And yes, we intend to build electric, plumbing, inside decoration, everything, by ourhands. And sails too.

(...)

The plan is to spend around or less than 50 000 euros.

You are not being realistic.

Start with a business plan and put ALL costs in it: space hire, machinery/tooling hire, energy cost, transport, materials, fittings, consumables, etc.. Remember you will not be able to use scale benefits - nearly everything you will buy at retail prices.

There is a Danish built 37' plastic fantastic down the dock for sale at 36k. I think she is offered at a decent asking price. If a 20-30 y.o. boat costs 35k then you cannot build a brand new and as good a boat for 50k.

b.

barnakiel · 08-01-2012, 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunDevil

I think for a family going on an extended cruise, a multihull would be more enjoyable.

OK, that's on comfort, right?

But on the safety side, I think an inexperienced family should never go for an extended cruise in a small cat. (My personal opinion, not a hard fact).

What I mean is small cats are not very forgiving. It is OK when one grew up sailing them and so has the skill and the experience to judge what has to be done and when. Otherwise get a cat but make it a big(ger) one.

Cheers,
b.

**s/v Jedi** · 08-01-2012, 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunDevil

When you go sailing on mono hulls and a catamaran, pay attention to how much heeling happens. Some people are fine with it, others wouldn't want to put up with it month after month.

And the question should be to buy a used monohull or build a new multihull. I think for a family going on an extended cruise, a multihull would be more enjoyable.

SunDevil, tell us about yourself, how long have you been living aboard your catamaran? Did you live aboard a mono before that? Is the heeling the only difference?

Alse, why do you write that the heeling of mono hulls gets tiring month after month? My passages take much less than that, the longest I can think of is less than a month. And mono's only heel while sailing...

Next is about the family... why is it different for a family?

cheers,
Nick.

haaho · 09-01-2012, 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnakiel

You are not being realistic.

Start with a business plan and put ALL costs in it: space hire, machinery/tooling hire, energy cost, transport, materials, fittings, consumables, etc..

b.

It will be mainly materials and etc. since we won't hire space, little tools a needed? and no transport cost.

Quote:

I would chose none: .... too delicate.

This is very interesting to me, what do you mean by that, that it is not seaworthy enough? All the models I looked at had more or less the same skin thickness, and acording to the designer even his smaller cats are suitable for offshore work.

**Boracay** · 09-01-2012, 00:33

You've convinced yourself. Go ahead. Put the next 10 years of your life into this project.

Pay no attention to the scores of experienced builders and sailors who have posted.

Don't take the time to look through the Forum to find those members and posts about those who had the same "I'm right." attitude that you have and certainly never, never read far enough to find what happened to them.

haaho · 09-01-2012, 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boracay

You've convinced yourself. Go ahead.

Yes, I think your are right

I knew I shoudn't listen ...

P.S. In my humble, newbie, nonexpirienced oppinion , from what I have red only, Wharram's are the worst cats out there at moment to build. And after they were recomended several times I just stop listen.

Everybody is crasy in own and unique way