Tropical Storm Sally

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by dannc

Traveling around Ireland, we have noticed that their house construction, at least the old houses and houses built traditionally, have no roof over hangs. The roof is actually lower than the gable ends of the house so that the wind does not peel the roof off the house. I do wonder how they keep the water from running down the interior wall on the gable end of the house.... Anyway, I think many areas in Ireland and the UK have to handle high winds more often than the southern US. Dan

Standard practise in the UK is to have two walls separated by a 4" gap but held together with wall ties (metal rods). The outside wall does get wet but the air gap prevents the damp from reaching the inner wall. Air vent bricks and the bottom and a gap at the top under the roof line (soffits) provide ventilation between the walls and under the suspended wooden floor. Very unlikely to knock down a flooded house in the UK, instead the inner plaster is torn off to the height of the flood and the house dried out for 6 months before replacing the plaster and folk move back in.

We have a 1930s house built of heavy concrete blocks 2' x 1' sitting on a concrete raft below ground level and are semi detached, so joined to our neighbours. Low 2 stories and a large base. We also have an extra layer of pebble dash, small pebbles embedded in cement then painted white. Rain just runs off and the white colour helps keep it cool in the summer. I think we might survive a hurricane, after all the house survived the Luftwaffe and yes we do have an air raid shelter in the garden. The tiled roof would be a weak point and probably need replacing. I think the design has come about to combat the long wet winters and whilst we have the same rainfall as say NY, its gentle rain that goes on for days so soaks everything thoroughly with little opportunity to dry out .

Biggest threat is the back garden which is about 3ft above Spring HW tides

Yes that is sea ice in the photo at the bottom of the garden.

Pete

[MicHughV]

in Florida we have "stick houses".....made up from 2x4's and plywood...if you see brick...it is likely just a veneer...
nowadays the roof has to be strapped down to the foundation with a steel rod around the perimeter of the house, but that was not always the case....
regardless, a Cat 5 hurricane will demolish a house around here...with or without roof straps...no problem....

but here comes the clincher....hurricane insurance.....most homes along the coast have to have hurricane insurance...if the wind blows the roof of your house and rain soaks everything you own.....you'll be covered....
if the water comes in thru' the front door or window from a hurricane tidal surge....you are not covered...that requires flood insurance...extra $$$ of course....

and people think "insurance" is not a racket....1,000's of people file claims after a hurricane, thinking they have hurricane insurance only to be told they were "not covered"....if damage can be shown to have come thru' the front door....

[JPA Cate]

People learned the hard way about brick houses in California. It turns out that in earthquakes, the roofs accelerate at a different rate than the walls. Whereas all wood houses accelerate and decelerate together, they are more flexible. Avoid brick construction in tectonicly active areas, steep canyons, and flood plains.

[acem]

I live in tornado alley instead of a hurricane zone. Different but similar.

I designed my house and had it custom built. Finished basement with French drains. if a tornado is coming just go to bed (in the basement). Stick built but over built. Metal hip roof. The only real concern is my wrap around porch but it helps so much in the summer heat and humidity.

In the southern usa it can get hot and humid like you don't see in Europe. In 2012 we had an official high of 117F at the nearest nws station. High humidity is the norm. I farm and ranch for a living and there is nothing like coming home for lunch after working hard all morning, taking your clothes off to clean up and wringing the sweat out of your underwear...

But around the gulf coast you cannot have a basement since the ground is too low and the water table is too high. Plus termites are terrible there. So you build the house up. Then it just catches more wind.

In parts of Louisiana it is common to build houses up on poles to avoid flooding.

Lumber is quite cheap in the USA.

Don't get me started on insurance companies. I might get banned!

Thx-Ace

[acem]

I've seen alot of houses like this along the Louisiana and Texas gulf coast. Works great for storm surge but not what about wind?

A friend from south Louisiana once told me you can build a house to withstand a cat 5 hurricane . But it don't matter if the surge washes it away. He says it better to build cheap and replace it. Along the Louisiana coast the surge can travel 10s of miles inland.

Thx-Ace

[Franziska]

Is the Gulf region or East coast known to be tectonic unstable?
Really just asking. Wood has a lot to speak for it, but I'm not convinced that a typical US style wooden house is a better solution in a hurricane.

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

People learned the hard way about brick houses in California. It turns out that in earthquakes, the roofs accelerate at a different rate than the walls. Whereas all wood houses accelerate and decelerate together, they are more flexible. Avoid brick construction in tectonicly active areas, steep canyons, and flood plains.

[JPA Cate]

Apologies, people, I wrote incorrectly. I wrote "Avoid brick construction in tectonically active areas, steep canyons, and flood plains," but I meant only to avoid brick construction in tectonically areas. Also avoid building in steep canyons and on flood plains. My bad.

My architect buddies assure me you can build strongly enough to avoid landslides, although beach cliffs in CA are a bit prone to that problem. CA fires and canyons don't mix well; even though extremely well built homes may survive the fire, usually a good deal of damage is done. Flood plains homes get washed away.

Ann

[PirateFoxy]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

When Frederick (Cat4, 1979) came through, (Were you *Ready for Freddy? LOL) after the storm Florida changed all building codes. Our home could no longer be insured. New home built to new code. Ivan came along and took the concrete and brick garage 2 streets over and deposited it in a canal. Ivan destroyed many lives, Florida courts ruled insurance didn't have to pay out on policies. ::still bitter:: :'(

Ivan got my parents’ roof up in Pittsburgh, too. Heavy rain, strong wind gusts, ripped a bunch of flashing off and ultimately tore up part of the waterproofing later on the flat roof on the addition. Nasty storm. And that was AFTER it’d downgraded significantly. But their house is almost at the top of a hill, not very sheltered, so the roof gets a lot of abuse. (Why some dimwit chose to put a flat roof on the addition in the first place, I do not know.)

[PirateFoxy]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Is the Gulf region or East coast known to be tectonic unstable?
Really just asking. Wood has a lot to speak for it, but I'm not convinced that a typical US style wooden house is a better solution in a hurricane.

East Coast states have been known to have earthquakes - we do have some fault lines they just aren’t as active as out West. But the fracking has gotten things moving more than they used to, so quake preparedness may become more of a thing.

Most houses in my area (western PA) are wood framed primarily because we have a ton of it around so it’s cheap, relatively, and easy to build with. A good part of the housing in the Pittsburgh area was built by the homeowners and their friends and family, one way or another. (Kit homes of various types, mostly.) Or it’s housing that was put up quick and cheap by the factory and mine owners to lure workers to immigrate to work for pennies - wood goes up faster than masonry.

As far as burying cables - depends on multiple factors including ground type, water table (some places the water table is so shallow your ditch for the cable to go in would be a swimming pool,) that sort of thing. Also then if there is a problem you have to dig it up to fix it, which in areas where digging is hard in the first place means you’ll be trying to dig things up quickly in conditions that are extremely difficult to work quickly IN. Stuff up on a pole falls down sometimes, but you don’t have to move a bunch of dirt (or water) to put it back up, either, y’know?

[Group9]

Well, after being told for three days that it was going to hit us, we are now suffering from severe 15-20 mph winds, while it wallops Alabama (who got almost no notice that it was going to hit them).

[Kay Burton]

I am concerned about the fact that disasters have become more frequent. Of course, singly and locally, we cannot influence their frequency in any way. But so many huge fires (Siberia, Australia, USA), storms, tornadoes - it drives me into anxiety. Of course, we can think about ourselves and build a more durable dwelling, but it seems to me that humanity should think about its activities, take more care of nature.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Hey guys, thanks for the input. Really interesting. Is it connected also to the fact that traditionally there where less rocks available in the southern US while wood was available in abundance?

On another note, why are all phone and power lines over ground if they get ripped down again and again?
Here that sort of stuff is mostly underground.
....

Yep, the houses are built with wood because that is what is cheap and available. Well, it use to be cheap but trees are currently selling for a bit over $900 per thousand board feet. At one of the peak in prices decades ago, timber was $400 per thousand board feet and for years it has been at $200...

In many areas in the South US there is just sand or clay. In southern Florida you will not see many houses with brick because those bricks have to be brought in a long distances. Cinder blocks(CMUs) can be made locally because the material is available but brick requires clay and in some areas there is only sand, and if you dig down, Limestone. We live in an area where bricks are made but using them can be expensive. The major home builders charge a premium to have a side of the house with brick. The actual cost is nothing like what is charged.

I can remember when the streets in Orlando, Florida where paved with bricks. Made for a bit of a bumpy ride but I loved the looks of it. Can't imagine what those road cost.

My understanding is that underground utilities are problematic. They might withstand the wind but they can can flood out. And being underground, any repairs from flood damage will cost more money and take longer. Utilities on poles don't really take that long to fix, as long as the poles survive.

In the area of Florida my parents live, the power company has been upgrading the power lines so that they are taller and stronger. They are using concrete poles. The problem were I live, is that the trees are so tall, it is impossible money wise to build the poles tall enough to avoid the trees falling. They could go underground but the cost to rebuild that infrastructure would be huge.

Later,
Dan

[sandy stone]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

but here comes the clincher....hurricane insurance.....most homes along the coast have to have hurricane insurance...if the wind blows the roof of your house and rain soaks everything you own.....you'll be covered....
if the water comes in thru' the front door or window from a hurricane tidal surge....you are not covered...that requires flood insurance...extra $$$ of course....

and people think "insurance" is not a racket....1,000's of people file claims after a hurricane, thinking they have hurricane insurance only to be told they were "not covered"....if damage can be shown to have come thru' the front door....

Sorry, but anybody who lives anywhere close to a flood zone should know that by now. But yes, before Ivan and Katrina that knowledge was not as common. Thousands of people thought that if the mortgage company didn't require flood insurance on your house, then you would never need it. And then after Katrina you had the wind and flood insurance companies duking it out - "The wind blew the house down" "No, the water washed it away" - and neither wanted to pay out.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Standard practise in the UK is to have two walls separated by a 4" gap but held together with wall ties (metal rods). The outside wall does get wet but the air gap prevents the damp from reaching the inner wall. Air vent bricks and the bottom and a gap at the top under the roof line (soffits) provide ventilation between the walls and under the suspended wooden floor. Very unlikely to knock down a flooded house in the UK, instead the inner plaster is torn off to the height of the flood and the house dried out for 6 months before replacing the plaster and folk move back in.

What most people do not know, is that brick is not water proof, it will wick water from the outside part of the brick to the inside. Brick veneer houses have an air gap between the brick and the structure, usually wood frame, to prevent that water from getting to the interior. One can look for weep holes in the brick wall to see if there is an air gap.

We were looking at some old homes in Ireland, old meaning they were falling down and use to have thatch roofs. From what we could tell they were solid rock walls. We also visited a town that had a few buildings showing how people used to live. These were the traditional Irish homes of one, two, or maybe three rooms. The middle room had the door and fireplace and the other two rooms were built on either side of the fireplace room. That room away from the fireplace had to get cold. I could not see, and I did look, for any signs of moisture on the interior but I could not find any. Maybe if the wall is thick enough it does not wick moisture?

The houses were simple but yet impressive.

Wood houses that flood can be rebuilt.

After Hurricane Floyd hit eastern NC with a massive amount of rain, it was 18-20 inches as I remember and a 500 year storm. However, it was worse than 18-20 inches of rain because another hurricane hit the same area just before Floyd, and that storm had dropped 15 or so inches of rain. To say the ground was saturated is an understatement. I saw soil around trees where the water had boiled out of the ground and caused them to lean, and in some cases, fall.

After the storm was over, I and some friends went to help with the recovery even while the water was still up in some areas. Went down twice.

Areas had flooded that had never been known to flood. It was a mess and the eastern part of the state was wiped out. However, much of the flooding was simply a slow rise and then slow fall of water. As long as the water did not rise to far in the houses, and most of the time it did not, the house could be rebuilt.

All of the goods in the house had to be taken out and thrown away. Since US houses are almost always made with drywall on the wood studs, that drywall had to be removed. The drywall will act like a sponge and suck water up the wall. The mold starts pretty quickly. One the furniture is out, the walls stripped down to the studs, and the floor removed to the joists, the house can dry out and be rebuilt. Utilities have to be replaced as well.

I went across several counties and saw thousands for flooded house but only a few were destroyed. Ironically, the two homes that were destroyed like one would imagine in a flood, were very old single wide trailers. They most have been 50 years old. Both were in different counties but both happened to be in a very slight low area. Both trailers were just sitting in the perfect low spot that drained lots of land and the rising waters just wiped out the trailers. One was just in sticks. The other had the sand scoured out from underneath it. Because the trailer was strapped down it could not move and did not move but the soil simply disappeared from underneath the trailer. It was like a giant had picked up the trailer, dug a pit underneath it and just dropped it back in the hole.

One of the trailers was in a trailer park which was one of the nicest developments I had ever seen. It was simply gorgeous and very well maintained in a grove of very mature pine trees. The land was mostly flat but there was a slight incline which ran like a funnel underneath that one trailer that the giant had picked up. Many homes were destroyed in that trailer park by the lack of an inch of height. The trailers are put up on cinder blocks and many of the homes would have been just fine if an extra row of cinder blocks had been used to raise the home. Once water hits the floor of the trailer it cannot be rebuilt. All but that one trailer looked just fine, but there would be home that was condemned right next to a home that looked ok. The difference was that one trailer was either on ground that was just slightly higher than the other or they had an extra row of blocks. Just being low enough for the flood waters to touch the underside of the trailer meant that home was condemned. It was heart breaking.

Originally Posted by Pete7

We have a 1930s house built of heavy concrete blocks 2' x 1' sitting on a concrete raft below ground level and are semi detached, so joined to our neighbours. Low 2 stories and a large base. We also have an extra layer of pebble dash, small pebbles embedded in cement then painted white. Rain just runs off and the white colour helps keep it cool in the summer. I think we might survive a hurricane, after all the house survived the Luftwaffe and yes we do have an air raid shelter in the garden. The tiled roof would be a weak point and probably need replacing. I think the design has come about to combat the long wet winters and whilst we have the same rainfall as say NY, its gentle rain that goes on for days so soaks everything thoroughly with little opportunity to dry out .
...

We saw many homes in Scotland and Ireland built that way. It is such a distinctive way to build. We stayed at a house in Dublin, we would call it a townhouse, but it was a row of houses built along a street. The houses were built in 1905 or there about. We were there a week and only heard people on one side when a bunch of kids went running up the stairs like only kids can. My guess is that there must have been double walls between the homes. It is funny that the layout of the house is like what we see on British TV shows. Course, there is only so much one can do with an interior design, given a certain geometry, be it a boat or house.

Later,
Dan

[RainDog]

Originally Posted by Group9

Well, after being told for three days that it was going to hit us, we are now suffering from severe 15-20 mph winds, while it wallops Alabama (who got almost no notice that it was going to hit them).

It seems most people in Pensacola took no notice either. A few hours before the storm hit we checked several marinas that have no protection and they were pretty much full. The construction company building the new bridge left 10's of millions of dollars of equipment sitting on barges in the bay. That same equipment destroyed a good section of the new bridge.

I can see boat owners not paying attention, but how one of the biggest construction companies in the world does not take precautions is baffling to me.