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Old 15-12-2019, 10:17   #31
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Re: The Humour in Left vs Right

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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Did Boris Johnson (successfully) match a bit of leaning to the left on the economy, with a similar lean to the right on Brexit, migration and crime?
Would that suggest that: It is easier for the right to move left on economics, than it is for the left to move right on identity and culture?
Actually, to be slightly serious, there is a body of social psychological research which suggests that conservatives tend to be more evenly balanced, morally speaking, vs liberals.

Professor Jonathan Haidt, and many others, have identified what they call six foundations, or axis, of human morality. These are:
  1. Care/harm for others, protecting them from harm.
  2. Fairness/cheating, Justice, treating others in proportion to their actions (He has also referred to this dimension as Proportionality.)
  3. Liberty/oppression, characterizes judgments in terms of whether subjects are tyrannized.
  4. Loyalty/betrayal to your group, family, nation. (He has also referred to this dimension as Ingroup.)
  5. Authority/subversion for tradition and legitimate authority. (He has also connected this foundation to a notion of Respect.)
  6. Sanctity/degradation, avoiding disgusting things, foods, actions. (He has also referred to this as Purity.)
According to their research liberals stress only three of the moral foundations (harm, fairness, and liberty) in their reasoning while conservatives stress all six more or less equally.
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Old 15-12-2019, 10:50   #32
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Re: The Humour in Left vs Right

When discussing political issues and party affiliations, especially when with friends or family of moderate perspectives and comparing our "centralist" opinions to other persons that hold rather extreme views, I can't help but recall this little jingle:

The images below being decidedly of the USA, and I recognize this is an international forum, but I suspect there are similar skews of party affiliations / perspectives in most other countries.
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Old 15-12-2019, 11:02   #33
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Re: The Humour in Left vs Right



“What’s Wrong with Jonathan Haidt’s Moral Foundations Theory, and How to get Moral Psychology Right” ~ by Oliver Scott Curry
https://behavioralscientist.org/what...chology-right/


Research has shown that examples of these seven types of cooperative behavior are considered morally good all around the world:
help your family,
help your group,
return favors,
be brave,
defer to your superiors,
be fair,
and respect others’ property

https://behavioralscientist.org/what...chology-right/
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Old 15-12-2019, 11:12   #34
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pirate Re: The Humour in Left vs Right

A Left Wing Socialist who detest's the Right..
The Shadow Home Secretary @HackneyAbbott turning up to vote with TWO LEFT SHOES ON."
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Old 15-12-2019, 11:17   #35
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Re: The Humour in Left vs Right

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Professor Jonathan Haidt, and many others, have identified what they call six foundations, or axis, of human morality. These are:
  1. Care/harm for others, protecting them from harm.
  2. Fairness/cheating, Justice, treating others in proportion to their actions (He has also referred to this dimension as Proportionality.)
  3. Liberty/oppression, characterizes judgments in terms of whether subjects are tyrannized.
  4. Loyalty/betrayal to your group, family, nation. (He has also referred to this dimension as Ingroup.)
  5. Authority/subversion for tradition and legitimate authority. (He has also connected this foundation to a notion of Respect.)
  6. Sanctity/degradation, avoiding disgusting things, foods, actions. (He has also referred to this as Purity.)
According to their research liberals stress only three of the moral foundations (harm, fairness, and liberty) in their reasoning while conservatives stress all six more or less equally.

I would suggest that the first 3 are universal and genuinely ethical, and the last 3 are (4) tribal, (5) control (6) dogma... not so much genuinely moral values as tests of conformity and subservience. I say this without negating the idea that we need to have orderly societies.
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Old 15-12-2019, 11:53   #36
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Re: The Humour in Left vs Right

A Kinsley gaffe occurs when a political gaffe reveals some truth, that a politician did not intend to admit. The term comes from journalist Michael Kinsley, who said, "A gaffe is when a politician tells the truth – some obvious truth he isn't supposed to say."

Rudy Giuliani, the former New York City mayor, and current Trump attorney, unintentionally coined a phrase when he declared “Truth isn’t truth” during an August appearance on NBC’s “Meet the Press.” Giuliani was responding to moderator Chuck Todd's statement that “truth is truth” during an interview about whether a Trump sit-down with Special Counsel Robert Mueller could be a “perjury trap.”
Giuliani later tried to clarify that he meant an interview would be fruitless, since Mueller and Trump were in disagreement over fundamental aspects of the inquiry -- but the damage was done and late-night talk show hosts had a field day. It may be cold comfort for Giuliani, but the statement did top a Yale Law School librarian’s list for the most notable quotes of 2018.
Update to "The Yale Book of Quotations"

Known for his frankness, Joe Biden has never been shy about speaking his mind. His mouth got him in trouble during a 2008 campaign stop in Missouri, where Senator Chuck Graham of Columbia, who has been confined to a wheelchair since the age of 16, was in attendance. Going off script, Biden decided that he wanted to recognize Senator Graham, saying, “Chuck, stand up. Let the people see you.”
Biden’s request led to a very awkward moment for everyone at the event, and a red-faced Biden attempted to backtrack, asking the crowd to “stand up for Chuck.”

The U.K.’s chauffer-driven Transport Minister, Steven Norris, once said: he quite understood why people used cars, because people did not like sitting on buses or trains next to “horrible, smelly people”. He apologised and lived to fight another two London mayoral campaigns.

Philip Smythe, the former leader of the New South Wales Liberal/National Party Coalition, was flying into Auckland, to attend a political conference. Just after the cabin crew had announced “please put your watches back 1 hour” he added (loudly) “and your minds back 20 years”. He was not aware that the editor of the New Zealand Herald newspaper was sitting directly behind, and promptly reported the gaffe on the following day’s front page.

Former Thatcher Cabinet Minister, Nicholas Ridley, gave an injudicious interview, to the Spectator, in which he described the EU as: a ‘German run racket, designed to take over the whole of Europe’. It was one gaffe too far, and his resignation soon followed, and was a key point on the route to Margaret Thatcher’s own eventual downfall.
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Old 15-12-2019, 12:23   #37
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Re: The Humour in Left vs Right

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I would suggest that the first 3 are universal and genuinely ethical, and the last 3 are (4) tribal, (5) control (6) dogma... not so much genuinely moral values as tests of conformity and subservience. I say this without negating the idea that we need to have orderly societies.
I've read a bit of this research. It is quite deep now, and yes there is good criticism out there, but it is a way to think about what constitutes morality or ethics.

LE, the researchers "discovered" these six foundations based on large amounts of data collected from people in many parts of the world. One interesting claim Haidt makes (based on the analysis) is that the first three are pronounced in Western developed countries, while the other three show up much more strongly in most of the rest of the world -- and interestingly amongst conservatives.

Some of this research attempts to understand why the liberal and conservative minds seem to clash so deeply on what seems like patently obvious questions (obvious to each side). The researchers also suggest we in the West are somewhat oddballs, morally speaking, compared to most of the rest of the world.

It's deeply fascinating research which holds up a mirror to those of us in one camp or another.
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Old 15-12-2019, 12:51   #38
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Re: The Humour in Left vs Right

FWIW: While they are sometimes used interchangeably, ethics and morals are different:
Ethics refer to external standards and rules provided by institutions, groups, or culture, to which an individual belongs (codes of conduct in workplaces or principles in religions).
Morals refer to an individual’s own principles, created and upheld by individuals themselves, regarding right and wrong.
Unfortunately, they don't always coincide.
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Old 15-12-2019, 13:27   #39
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Re: The Humour in Left vs Right

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FWIW: While they are sometimes used interchangeably, ethics and morals are different:
Ethics refer to external standards and rules provided by institutions, groups, or culture, to which an individual belongs (codes of conduct in workplaces or principles in religions).
Morals refer to an individual’s own principles, created and upheld by individuals themselves, regarding right and wrong.
Unfortunately, they don't always coincide.
Thank you, yes, that's an important distinction, although I think of them in possibly the reverse sense:

Morals are the collection of rules imposed by "institutions, groups, or culture, to which an individual belongs (codes of conduct in workplaces or principles in religions)"

Ethics are determining what is actually right or wrong. A set of principles might be codified in a company list, but a behaviour can be judged as ethical or not solely on its own merits, no list required.

eg - P0rnography, same-sex unions, or "games of chance on the Sabbath" might be considered immoral by different groups, even though there's not much to indicate that they are unethical - ie right or wrong in themselves.

One possible definition of ethics is as a branch of philosophy which defines what is good for individuals and society. Which to me supports the idea that "ethics" come out of a search for right and wrong, as opposed to an imposed set of prescriptions (...morals). Also "At the heart of ethics is a concern about something or someone other than ourselves and our own desires and self-interest."... which is something I don't always associate with morals.

As I said, this is my definition. I tried looking up more definitions for both ethics and morals, and they were usually used to define each other.
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Old 15-12-2019, 13:55   #40
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Re: The Humour in Left vs Right

Do people become more liberal or more conservative with age (relative to the center, whatever that is)? Why?
  • Move to the left: They've seen more greed, hardship, and senseless bigotry.

  • Move to the right: They've worked hard, seen waste, and dislike change for its own sake.
If the spectrum is a horseshoe, it would seem unlikely that someone would swing from one side to the other, since the equilibrium is unstable. And yet I've seen people move both directions with age.
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Old 15-12-2019, 13:57   #41
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Re: The Humour in Left vs Right

One observation I have made is that the right tends to call people that disagree with their political positions one syllable name where as the left tends to call people that disagree with their positions multi-syllable names. Since both sides have violated the old adage that resorting to name calling means you have lost the argument, it may explain why we're in political deadlock.
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Old 15-12-2019, 14:05   #42
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Re: The Humour in Left vs Right

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One observation I have made is that the right tends to call people that disagree with their political positions one syllable name where as the left tends to call people that disagree with their positions multi-syllable names. Since both sides have violated the old adage that resorting to name calling means you have lost the argument, it may explain why we're in political deadlock.
That might be passe, since the left are now often called "elitists".

To contribute a bit to the humour part, my favourite definition of a lib'rul is someone who's wrong for all the right reasons.

Ok, one more: a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged.
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Old 15-12-2019, 14:52   #43
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Re: The Humour in Left vs Right

There's an old saying, along these general lines:
If You Are Not a Liberal When You Are Young, You Have No Heart, and If You Are Not a Conservative When Old, You Have No Brain.
Often left off the quotation:
And, whoever is still either a liberal, or a conservative, at age seventy-eight has no sense of humor.
Obviously, orthodox certainty, on matters about which there can be so little certitude, must eventually be seen as only amusing. If we can't learn from both liberals and conservatives, and also laugh at both liberals and conservatives, we might want to reconsider the vehemence of our partisan commitments.
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Old 15-12-2019, 15:27   #44
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Re: The Humour in Left vs Right

The left does not have a sense of humor and the right only laughs at the left..........
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Old 15-12-2019, 16:35   #45
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Re: The Humour in Left vs Right

“Whatever else an American believes or disbelieves about himself, he is absolutely sure he has a sense of humor.” ~ E. B. White

“Psychology, political ideology, and humor appreciation: Why is satire so liberal?” ~ by D. G. Young et al.
“... we explain how the psychological profiles of conservatives may render them less motivated to process and appreciate certain forms of humor compared to liberals...
... Findings suggest that conservatives are less appreciative of both irony and exaggeration than liberals. In both cases, the effect is explained in part by lower sense of humor and need for cognition found among conservative participants...
Abstract ➥ https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2017-51853-001
More ➥ https://psmag.com/social-justice/why...rvatives-funny
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