Seasteading

[LargeMarge]

Originally Posted by newhaul

well not actually . It is is a real and legitimate way of cruising and living on a boat .

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...SbNqBjfN8yQzAa

Folks, above your link, please identify the product in your link.

I clicked the link, and it started an auto-download. Bad idea.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by LargeMarge

Folks, above your link, please identify the product in your link.

I clicked the link, and it started an auto-download. Bad idea.

wasn't my post explanation enough for you ? Nobody else seems to have a problem .

[StuM]

Originally Posted by LargeMarge

Folks, above your link, please identify the product in your link.

I clicked the link, and it started an auto-download. Bad idea.

That was actually one of those horrible google tracking URLs pointing to a PDF copy of the book "Sailing The Farm". Here's the direct link stripped of all the google tracking code:



https://we.riseup.net/assets/268677/sailfarm.pdf

[StuM]

Originally Posted by newhaul

wasn't my post explanation enough for you ? Nobody else seems to have a problem .

Actually, I have a problem as well on several counts.


1. If you are going to link to a document, please link to it directly, not through a google tracking URL which completely obfuscates what you are linking to.


2. You did not indicate that you were linking to a PDF, you didn't explain what the link was at all.


3. Sailing The Farm is not about "seasteading" (Seasteading is the concept of creating permanent dwellings at sea, called seasteads, outside the territory claimed by any government.), it's about being self sufficient on a sailboat which is an entirely different concept.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

To me it bugs me that nations can and do now lay claim to way more of the seas than they used to, by calling it an economic zone, which I thought was set up so as to control fishing, but now has apparently way more meaning than that.

I’d go so far as to suggest that the big mega companies haven’t gone to something similar to this as a tax dodge, only means they don’t have to dodge taxes.
Many nations, Bahamas and the Caymans come to my mind as they are in my backyard are apparently tax havens for the wealthy now, which says to me that they take less of the pie than others.
No nation is going to willingly give up that piece of pie, and you know that Thailand’s over the top response has to be for some good reason, either afraid of losing money, or afraid of another nation state setting up operations just off shore, or something.

Be interesting to know what they are afraid of?

What's odd about this is they are mobilizing for what on the surface appears to be pretty insignificant. A big corporation would never have gotten this far, not because they are skirting by tax free but because the govt would have stepped in sooner. My bet is he ticked off a local authority and rather than backing down, he escalated the conflict.

I think the range increasing is more to do with technology and capability. In the middle ages, monitoring and patrolling more than 3 miles out was near impossible (sketchy at best) but it was also difficult for interlopers to function outside that range, so it worked. With steam and then ICE motors, it became much easier to both interlope and patrol further out. In more modern times with radio, radar, satellite and other technology, it's possible to go even further out. 100yr ago the idea of deep sea oil wells was fantasy...the rules had to change to account for it.

As far as the Caymans, tax havens have to a very large degree been shut down (at least the most egregious activities). Even Switzerland has caved on opening up their banking info. I'm sure some stuff happens still but it has been reigned in to a large degree.

Anarchists have fun running thru mental exercises of escaping the big bad govt but do we really want to live in a world where it's all like Somalia? No law, no organization, just a string of warlords doing as they please?

PS: BBC picked it up and did a short clip on it...but no real detail on the backstory or legal ramifications.

[StuM]

Just to clarify a lot of incorrect suppositions posted earlier concerning the EEZ.

UNCLOS (UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, 1982)

Article 55
Specific legal regime of the exclusive economic zone

The exclusive economic zone is an area beyond and adjacent to the territorial sea, subject to the specific legal regime established in this Part, under which the rights and jurisdiction of the coastal State and the rights and freedoms of other States are governed by the relevant provisions of this Convention.

Article 60
Artificial islands, installations and structures in the exclusive economic zone



1.In the exclusive economic zone, the coastal State shall have the exclusive right to construct and to authorize and regulate the construction,operation and use of:

(a) artificial islands;

(b) installations and structures for the purposes provided for in article 56 and other economic purposes;
(c) installations and structures which may interfere with the exercise of the rights of the coastal State in the zone.]


2.The coastal State shall have exclusive jurisdiction over such artificial islands, installations and structures, including jurisdiction with regard to customs, fiscal, health, safety and immigration laws and regulations.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

As far as the Caymans, tax havens have to a very large degree been shut down (at least the most egregious activities). Even Switzerland has caved on opening up their banking info. I'm sure some stuff happens still but it has been reigned in to a large degree..

Fantasy

The really big players, legal and not, just pay teams of accountants and lawyers that are always far ahead of the tax authorities, who pay piddly salaries.

If not actually capturing the regulators through our ever-more corrupted political processes, and putting the foxes in charge of the henhouse.

Both trends accelerating in recent years, not getting reduced at all.

At least a third of the global economy now gets routed through these tax havens.

True motivation for Brexit IMO, UK banking sector wanted to maintain the status quo.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

What's odd about this is they are mobilizing for what on the surface appears to be pretty insignificant. A big corporation would never have gotten this far, not because they are skirting by tax free but because the govt would have stepped in sooner. My bet is he ticked off a local authority and rather than backing down, he escalated the conflict.

I think the range increasing is more to do with technology and capability. In the middle ages, monitoring and patrolling more than 3 miles out was near impossible (sketchy at best) but it was also difficult for interlopers to function outside that range, so it worked. With steam and then ICE motors, it became much easier to both interlope and patrol further out. In more modern times with radio, radar, satellite and other technology, it's possible to go even further out. 100yr ago the idea of deep sea oil wells was fantasy...the rules had to change to account for it.

As far as the Caymans, tax havens have to a very large degree been shut down (at least the most egregious activities). Even Switzerland has caved on opening up their banking info. I'm sure some stuff happens still but it has been reigned in to a large degree.

Anarchists have fun running thru mental exercises of escaping the big bad govt but do we really want to live in a world where it's all like Somalia? No law, no organization, just a string of warlords doing as they please?

PS: BBC picked it up and did a short clip on it...but no real detail on the backstory or legal ramifications.

In the beginning a robber baron or king's or emporer's jurisdiction ran to the shore line. Then tin miners in Cornwall started burrowing out under the sea chasing tin seams and the three mile jurisdiction came in. Then they started chasing oil out into the Gulf of Mexico and the concept of jurisdiction for mineral extraction was extended to the extent of the continental shelf. Then the concept of the 200 nm economic zone for fishing rights was dreamt up.

It pretty well comes down to having the power to enforce the offshore jurisdictional claims.

The Thailand government probably thought that if they let one person get away with it there will be a hundred of the buggers there next week.

[Chotu]

I still don’t get a lot of these arguments. He created a free floating small platform. A boat. It was anchored using anchors like we use.

Laws applying to artificial islands don’t seem to apply.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I still don’t get a lot of these arguments. He created a free floating small platform. A boat. It was anchored using anchors like we use.

Laws applying to artificial islands don’t seem to apply.

If it's just an anchored boat...he's not a seastead and has to be able to show where the boat is registered and follow all maritime rules and law. He doesn't get to play tax games pretending he is in his own micro-nation...which is likely what he was trying to do.

But, he wasn't claiming he was just a yachtie with an odd boat and I suspect he was using permanent moorings not just anchored.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by n13L5

... and that the convention happened in 1933 makes the whole thing as creepy and suspicious as Jekyll island 1913.

Conspiracy, anyone?
What’s “spooky” about banking reform in general, and a central bank (Federal Reserve) in particular (or a federal government)?
America had suffered a continual series of financial panics, bank runs, money shortages, and, indeed, full-blown depressions
So that was why they thought, as did every other industrialized country in the World, the U.S. needed a central bank.

“The Creature from Jekyll Island” by G. Edward Griffin. ➥ https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-st...ble?ref=scroll

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If it's just an anchored boat...he's not a seastead and has to be able to show where the boat is registered and follow all maritime rules and law. He doesn't get to play tax games pretending he is in his own micro-nation...which is likely what he was trying to do.

But, he wasn't claiming he was just a yachtie with an odd boat and I suspect he was using permanent moorings not just anchored.

I agree completely. He was playing all kinds of games. Truth of the matter is, he was using a barge, albeit of unique design. It was free floating and was anchored just like we anchor.

That’s why I’m wondering about the comments here. They are concerning permanent structures and Man build islands. Despite how much this guy slapped his gums, he had none of that.

Certainly a great area when it comes to the laws.

[LargeMarge]

Originally Posted by newhaul

wasn't my post explanation enough for you ? Nobody else seems to have a problem .

Dear newhaul,

Thank you for your reaction to my request.
I can see I could word it differently.

My intent is always to be helpful.
My intent is always to build and maintain harmony in our fragile community.

I appreciate you for bringing this to my attention.
I am grateful for your assistance in these difficult times.

Bless you and all you love!

[Alan Mighty]

Press report with photos of the disassembly of the "seastead": https://thethaiger.com/news/phuket/p...on-shore-video

Media reports suggest Thai officials have been tracking the cellphones of the two persons concerned and that those cellphones were last in automatic communication with 4G cells on Tarutao Island in the province governed from Satun, in southern Thailand.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I agree completely. He was playing all kinds of games. Truth of the matter is, he was using a barge, albeit of unique design. It was free floating and was anchored just like we anchor.

That’s why I’m wondering about the comments here. They are concerning permanent structures and Man build islands. Despite how much this guy slapped his gums, he had none of that.

Certainly a great area when it comes to the laws.

The comments here are based on his claims that it's some sort of micro-nation, so they reference the available rules.

If it's permanently moored...is that a permanent structure? Particularly if he is claiming to be some sort of micro-nation, then they can claim a permanent mooring is a permanent structure or man made island.

I don't think it's a gray area...it's just black & white no matter which way he wants to claim it.