Outdated Sea Traditions

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

Well, the overwhelming majority of the entire world, not just sailors use particularly double sheet bends with excellent results. Indeed it is universally, and I mean universally considered an excellent knot for its specified application so you and the other commenter here would appear to be an outlier. To call it "outdated" is certainly an exaggeration. I have never had one fail (correctly applied) in more than 30 years sailing under all conditions. I have heard of the Zeppelin loop, of course, it is a standard in all even fairly basic knot books. Used to be used for tethering airships. And???

I don't have time right now to thumb through the whole thread… deadlining on a refit project. But z loops or z bends if you like don't strike me as particularly good for joining two lines of SIGNIFICANTLY UNEQUAL DIAMETER, which is the primary function of the double sheet bend.

Would you really use the double sheet bend for a critical purpose if load was to be applied and released repeatedly eg towing a boat? I think most people would resort to tying two bow lines.

A slighly modified Zeppelin (see the linked thread) is brilliant at joining lines of not just significant, but very different diameter. The double sheetbend can slip extremely easily if load is applied and released a few times (it doesn't take many). In water the double sheet bend is hopeless if load is released.

Shall we take this converstaion to the Zep thread? I don't want to hijack Wottie's thread.

SWL

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Would you really use the double sheet bend for a critical purpose if load was to be applied and released repeatedly eg towing a boat? I think most people would resort to tying two bow lines.

A slighly modified Zeppelin (see the linked thread) is brilliant at joining lines of not just significant, but very different diameter. The double sheetbend can slip extremely easily if load is applied and released a few times (it doesn't take many). In water the double sheet bend is hopeless if load is released.

Shall we take this converstaion to the Zep thread? I don't want to hijack Wottie's thread.

SWL

Well perhaps later. As far as a double sheet bend, depends. Each knot has its own applications and cherrypicking particular circumstances in order to refer to a whole class of extremely useful bends as "oudated" seems a little rich to me. And as far as "resorting" to using opposed bowlines, there seems to be a wide divergence of opinion on that, as well as the use of your favourite "loop masquerading as a bend", the Zeppelin:

Zeppelin Bend: Security and Strength

Have any links to actual data in scientifically conducted trials?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

Have any links to actual data in scientifically conducted trials?

Yep, Estarzinger posted his results here on CF.

I'm with SWL, The ZB deserves to be much better known and used widely. It s far superior to the SB and even the DSB in every way.

(I have heard of the Zeppelin loop, of course, it is a standard in all even fairly basic knot books. Used to be used for tethering airships. And???
The so called Zeppelin Loop is a bastard child of the Zeppelin Bend . And... no, the loop wasn't used for tethering airships, the Bend was.)

[Seaworthy Lass]

I have been busy and haven't had a chance to reply.

Muckle Flugga, results of lad tests Evans has done can be found here:
Load testing

I will copy the last few posts over to the Zeppelin thread so Wottie's thread is not disrupted:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ad-128727.html

Sorry Wottie .

SWL

[Wotname]

Let me get a quick word in here .

I was of the same opinion as Muckle Flugga until my eyes were opened and then I saw the truth. The Zep is truly superior.

The whole world once thought the earth was the centre of the universe.
The whole world once thought Newtonian physics was the only way to understand motion.
The era of the sheet bend is over… sorry...

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Let me get a quick word in here .

I was of the same opinion as Muckle Flugga until my eyes were opened and then I saw the truth. The Zep is truly superior.

The whole world once thought the earth was the centre of the universe.
The whole world once thought Newtonian physics was the only way to understand motion.
The era of the sheet bend is over… sorry...

'Sorry' to you too Sir... I'm a traditionalist... they can stow those new fangled airship knots where the monkey stows its nuts... I'll stick to the known and proven.... seize the ends and..if its a long tow time wise ...have the 'towee' hang off his anchor and make the tow line fast to a few cables of chain to maintain a steady load.

Or use a Carrick Bend... or maybe even a double one.

Knock me down with a dead wombat... next thing you know people will be wanting two eggs on Sunday..

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

'Sorry' to you too Sir... I'm a traditionalist... they can stow those new fangled airship knots where the monkey stows its nuts... I'll stick to the known and proven.... seize the ends and..if its a long tow time wise ...have the 'towee' hang off his anchor and make the tow line fast to a few cables of chain to maintain a steady load.

Or use a Carrick Bend... or maybe even a double one.

Knock me down with a dead wombat... next thing you know people will be wanting two eggs on Sunday..

Strike me pink cobber, ya flamming mad; a monkey's fist to where the sun don't shine.

Seizing the ends, good god old boy, that takes time and effort and another thing to stuffed up or forgotten.

Belay the sheet bend and seize the new dawn, breath the airship ways and haul away on the good knot Zep.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

'Sorry' to you too Sir... I'm a traditionalist... they can stow those new fangled airship knots where the monkey stows its nuts... I'll stick to the known and proven.... seize the ends and..if its a long tow time wise ...have the 'towee' hang off his anchor and make the tow line fast to a few cables of chain to maintain a steady load.

Or use a Carrick Bend... or maybe even a double one.

Knock me down with a dead wombat... next thing you know people will be wanting two eggs on Sunday..

ROFL! What if you don't have time for seizing and what if you want to untie the lines afterward (zero hope with a Carrick)? There is absolutely no need for seizing with the Zep. To top if off, the breaking load is substantially higher than a double sheet bend (it is roughly the same as a Carrick).

I have tied the Zep quickly and easily in the dark on a pitching deck to join two snubber lines (we needed to extend in a hurry without hauling up some of the chain), and it has not only held in 30+ knots of almost continuous wind for 48 hours with lots of jerking as the boat was flung around in gusts, but has been dead easy to undo with one hand afterwards.

I had spent ages beforehand researching all the data (not a huge amount to be found, but still for me enough to be conclusive), reading climbing forums and knot tying forums, doing a few tests between our winches myself, simply shaking the line and seeing how easily a sheet bend and even double sheet bend undo each and every time (the Zep NEVER budges), but using the Zep in what must be about the worst conditions (and numerous times now) and being able to easily untie it afterwards has me an absolute convert .

SWL

This shot was taken underwater after about 30 hours of the meltemi howling. The Zep held our 48 footer safely. This was the first occasion, but has been repeated since. You can see by the diamter of the nylon how it is thinning under load:

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

ROFL! What if you don't have time for seizing and what if you want to untie the lines afterward .......
SWL

Thats why sailors carry knives... you know what they say... a sailor without a knife is as useless as.....

I bet you want 2 eggs on saturdays as well.......

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Thats why sailors carry knives... you know what they say... a sailor without a knife is as useless as.....

I bet you want 2 eggs on saturdays as well.......

Yep and coddled too if you please, my good man.

[Muckle Flugga]

Gosh, I feel like I've just stumbled into some sort of religious convention. Certainly has converts.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

Gosh, I feel like I've just stumbled into some sort of religious convention. Certainly has converts.

LOL, not just converts, we are on a crusade .

Muckle, it is like people have blindfolds on when it comes to knots: "This is the way it has always been done and it is sacrilegious contemplating there could be a better way".

Seriously, what bend would you use to tie two snubber lines or two tow lines together in rough conditions where the safety of your boat depended on it?

Would you really choose a double sheet bend? I would not hesitate using a Zeppelin and have used it .

The Knot Mistress

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

The Knot Mistress

Cardinal Seaworthy Lass

[SaltyMonkey]

The only thing wrong with the Zep, is that its not an Alpine butterfly. The zep is a very good knot otherwise........for amateurs

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

The only thing wrong with the Zep, is that its not an Alpine butterfly. The zep is a very good knot otherwise........for amateurs

Salty, I would opt for the Alpine over the Double sheet bend in the blink of an eye - siblings need to stick together .

SWL

PS I have given up avoiding thread hijack. No one seems to want to shift the conversation to the the Zep thread. Wottie, do you want to rename the thread "Why we should all convert to the Zeppelin Bend"?

SWL