Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 16-03-2010, 15:29   #1
Senior Cruiser
 
GordMay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 49,082
Images: 241
Officer Charged in Ferry Sinking

The navigating officer (Karl Lilgert) at the helm of the Queen of the North ferry has been charged with two counts of criminal negligence causing death.

More ☞ Officer charged with criminal negligence in B.C. ferry sinking

And ☞ Crew member charged in B.C. ferry sinking - CTV British Columbia
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-03-2010, 16:03   #2
Registered User
 
unbusted67's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Boat: Looking for a new boat
Posts: 2,552
Images: 24
What would the law look like in the states. What is the difference between a horrible mistake and a charge of negligence? It makes you think twice about that six pack license you were going for.
unbusted67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-03-2010, 16:14   #3
Registered User
 
Zednotzee's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Oromocto, New Brunswick
Boat: 1976 Alberg 37 Yawl hull 172
Posts: 395
From the CTV article:


"The report said Briker and Lilgert had recently ended a relationship and it was their first shift alone on watch since the break-up.


The safety board said the two were engaged in a personal conversation while the ship was on its collision course."

For me this brings to mind the whole "sterile cockpit" rule in the airline industry, whereby only flight procedures are discussed during critical phases of the trip.

Also, had they disclosed their relationship to their employer? If they did, should some changes have been made in scheduling or work routines, to keep them from working together, & thus preventing them from interfering in the safe operation of the vessel?
__________________
Facts are for people who can't create their own truth. Fact.- Bucky Katt
Zednotzee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-03-2010, 16:32   #4
Registered User
 
bangkaboat's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sihanoukville, Cambodia
Boat: looking
Posts: 593
Images: 3
What I found most interesting about the article is that, though "the nav. equipment had been turned off for weeks", only Lilgert is considered responsible. There was a captain, the ultimate authority, onboard this ship. Did he continually walk past the rasta-scan, thinking someone had left their old t.v. on the bridge? Yes, Lilgert deserves to be tarred & feathered, but sole responsibility? By extension, it seems like an avoidance of legal responsibility by B.C. Ferry Services, to me. "Not our fault. Not our captain's fault. Just individual due diligence".

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/1...inking_charges
Mike
bangkaboat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-03-2010, 17:12   #5
Registered User
 
fishwife's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South coast of England, moving around a bit.
Boat: Long range motor cruiser
Posts: 750
The Transportation Safety Board of Canada's report can be viewed here. Transportation Safety Board of Canada | Marine
__________________
The message is the journey, we are sure the answer lies in the destination. But in reality, there is no station, no place to arrive at once and for all. The joy of life is the trip, and the station is a dream that constantly out distances us”. Robert Hastings, The Station
fishwife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-03-2010, 17:25   #6
Moderator Emeritus
 
hummingway's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gabriola Island & Victoria, British Columbia
Boat: Cooper 416 Honeysuckle
Posts: 6,933
Images: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbusted67 View Post
What would the law look like in the states. What is the difference between a horrible mistake and a charge of negligence? It makes you think twice about that six pack license you were going for.
From the CTV article:
"The criminal justice branch said a negligence charge is laid when there is evidence someone didn't perform their duty and showed reckless disregard for the safety or lives of others."

I suspect one of the reasons for the long deliberation before laying charges is that they needed to prove deriliction of duty. That is different from making a mistake.
__________________
“We are the universe contemplating itself” - Carl Sagan

hummingway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2010, 03:27   #7
Senior Cruiser
 
GordMay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 49,082
Images: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by hummingway View Post
From the CTV article:
"The criminal justice branch said a negligence charge is laid when there is evidence someone didn't perform their duty and showed reckless disregard for the safety or lives of others."

I suspect one of the reasons for the long deliberation before laying charges is that they needed to prove deriliction of duty. That is different from making a mistake.
I expect that the purpose of an investigation is to acquire evidence (and assess the likelihood of conviction), and that of a subsequent trial is to determine what that evidence "proves".

The Fourth Officer may, yet, be found innocent of criminal negligence.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2010, 06:08   #8
Registered User
 
Captain Bill's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Punta Gorda, Fl
Boat: Endeavourcat Sailcat 44
Posts: 3,168
I guess we'll see what the court says in this particular case, but in a purely hypothetical situation, if the offcer in charge of the bridge was performing some personal task instead of performing the duty that he was being paid to perform, then he was negilgent in respect to his duty. The helmsman no mater how inexperienced was not in charge. The fact that someone died makes this all the worse. Again in the hypothetical, if the captain left a licensed officer it charge of the bridge he would have an expectation that the officer would perform his professional duties. If the officer failed to perform those duties because he was doing something other than what he was supposed to, the Captain would not have taken any action for which he could be held criminally liable. I would think that it would be totally reasonable to charge the bridge officer with negilegence if something happened to the vessel while he was doing personal business and not paying attention to his duties.
Captain Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2010, 07:00   #9
Moderator Emeritus
 
David M's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Boat: Research vessel for a university, retired now.
Posts: 10,406
If the story as written is true and it were under US law, clearly the mate is at fault. The master perhaps, if he was aware of any previous discrepancies with the Mate's job performance. The helmsman definitely not.
__________________
David

Life begins where land ends.
David M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2010, 07:11   #10
Senior Cruiser
 
GordMay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 49,082
Images: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
I guess we'll see what the court says in this particular case ...
... I would think that it would be totally reasonable to charge the bridge officer with negilegence ...
And so we will, and so he was.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2010, 09:25   #11
Moderator Emeritus
 
hummingway's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gabriola Island & Victoria, British Columbia
Boat: Cooper 416 Honeysuckle
Posts: 6,933
Images: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
I expect that the purpose of an investigation is to acquire evidence (and assess the likelihood of conviction), and that of a subsequent trial is to determine what that evidence "proves".

The Fourth Officer may, yet, be found innocent of criminal negligence.
I agree that the investigators gather evidence but prosecutors bring charges when they feel they have proof of guilt and can convince a court to convict. That's semantics, the point being clearly the crown doesn't believe it was simply an accident.
__________________
“We are the universe contemplating itself” - Carl Sagan

hummingway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2010, 10:38   #12
CF Adviser

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,449
Actually, in Canada the prosecutors do not typically 'bring' or lay charges - the police do. I suspect that in a case of this magnitude, there was some consultation with the Crown before the charges were laid, but that need not be the case.

What is clear to this point, is only that the police swore an information charging criminal negligence because in their opinion they have reasonable and probable grounds to believe (and do believe) that the officer in question was not merely careless, but that his actions displayed a wanton and reckless disregard for the lives and safety of others, causing death. Ultimately the Crown will have to determine if they wish to proceed on the charges and, assuming he does not plead guilty, prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. As this is an indictable offence (equivalent to a felony in the USA) he will be entitled to a preliminary hearing and, if he is committed to stand trial, a trial before a judge and jury, or a judge alone should that be his choice.

Brad
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2010, 10:42   #13
Moderator Emeritus
 
hummingway's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gabriola Island & Victoria, British Columbia
Boat: Cooper 416 Honeysuckle
Posts: 6,933
Images: 5
Thanks for the clarification. "police swore an information" can you explain this? So the police lay charges and the Crown can have the charges dropped or proceed if evidence is adequate?
__________________
“We are the universe contemplating itself” - Carl Sagan

hummingway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2010, 11:21   #14
CF Adviser

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,449
With respect to the relative roles of the police/crown, you are exactly right. In Canada the 'information' is the document that contains the charges and must be sworn to under oath by a police officer (or in the case of a private charge, by the complainant) before a Justice of the Peace. In the case of an indictable offence, as here, if the accused person elects trial in Superior Court, he/she is entitled to have a preliminary hearing to determine it there is a prima facie case and, if committed to stand trial on the charge(s) after the preliminary hearing, an 'indictment' is then preferred by the Crown which becomes the charging document in the Superior Court.

Brad
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Ferry

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sinking Cats Gludy Multihull Sailboats 209 29-05-2010 20:07
Two Battery Banks Correctly Charged? bryan and wendy Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 20 14-01-2010 08:42
12.5 Volts Fully Charged? Meck Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 7 18-09-2009 08:12
No Worries of Sinking.... Spin_Drift Flotsam & Sailing Miscellany 18 13-01-2009 10:29
Naval Officer and Cruiser Alexei Meets & Greets 5 08-06-2008 00:22

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:43.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.