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Old 06-08-2019, 16:18   #646
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
The subject matter experts are pretty sure that about #1; established in 1959 (or earlier) that #2 occurs in a closed system like a greenhouse; that modern CO2 levels as described in #3 are correct but that the rest may require citations; that #4 could be an accurate statement; and that you're pulling #5 -- the crux of the entire discussion -- out of your a**.

When all put together, you've once again repeated what nobody disputed about the source and levels of human-added CO2, but then added in assumptions about warming which are well-documented in the mainstream body of science, but are just as incompatible with expert skeptic positions as they were the last time you made such assumptions. :

#2 - Either CO2 in the atmosphere influences warming, or it does not. Make up your mind.


My #3 needs a citation? No it's the complete lack of a counterfactual that makes it pretty solid.


# 3 & 5 - If you believe that there are natural forces capable of raising the CO2 level by 40% in 200 years, it's incumbent upon you to reach up your own fundament and pull it out. Otherwise, ya got nuttin. Except your political bias still floundering around for a plausible scientific rock to sun itself on.
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Old 06-08-2019, 16:19   #647
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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Originally Posted by stevensuf View Post
So if global warming caused by co2 is real, the world turns into lush tropical jungles and lovely Forrest as far as the poles, if it is false then we get glaciers and 3-5kms of ice over a high percentage of the northern hemisphere and a small area of warm land near the equator and lots of dry tundra and deserts.


Well i am all for global warming,it can only be a good thing, lets petition to stop the ice age now!
What do we want?
More co2 ,
when do we want it?
now!
Now there is a man after my own heart.

Unfortunately, CO2 does not make much of a difference to temperatures despite all the fancy graphs. Twice the CO2 does not mean double the effect and half of CO2 does not mean half temperature.

The reality is that no one answers how much CO2 reduction to reduce one degree, because no one knows, and therefore the whole issue is moot. A con, a fraud, picked up by those in search of a cause.

So I am afraid Steven that the natural changes that have occured in the past will occur again and slowly, irrespective of our own wills and wants.
Lush desert however sounds great. May be I can buy a few thousand square Km of Simpson Desert? Sounds like a good long term investment to me ...
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Old 06-08-2019, 16:20   #648
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
citation please.
looking for it now its buried deep in my old tablet give me 36 hours to find it again .

It is also posted somewhere in the http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ng-157085.html

Or this thread http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...rs-158143.html
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Old 06-08-2019, 16:23   #649
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
Even though the WMO also used the word "history" to re-declare that the sky is falling, that is actually incorrect. They also used the phrase "climate history" which is also incorrect.


A more correct description would be "The hottest July weather in the modern record". The technically correct description would be "The hottest average of peak temperatures in the modern weather record"
here Dr Spencer says otherwise and even explains why including several different datasets

Roy Spencer, PhD
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Old 06-08-2019, 16:26   #650
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
Huh. Too deep for me. I always thought there was a bunch of other factors - countries, governments, companies, advertising, subsidies,and other such stuff in there as well.
You say it starts at the top, I say it starts at the bottom. Countries don't consume fossil fuels. Governments don't consume fossil fuels. Companies don't consume fossil fuels, Advertising doesn't consume fossil fuels, Subsidies don't consume fossil fuels, Other Stuff doesn't consume fossil fuels. Termites don't consume fossil fuels.


People do.


Quote:
It's not the exact numbers, it's the concept. If you dig up and burn fossil fuels, you're adding CO2 to a system previously in balance.
You confuse balance with equilibrium. The Earth will reach a new equilibrium. Remember, the system is non linear. Despite all the hoo-hah no-one has presented a convincing argument on why 1850 was such a Utopia. History paints it somewhat bleaker than that which we enjoy today.



Quote:
You assume the system (the planet, us) can successfully change and adapt in a time frame that's near instantaneous by planetary measure. Stuff's gonna break. And you discount the possibility that such a significant and unprecedented alteration won't throw things so far out of whack that the CO2 warming will overcome the existing cycles that would otherwise have produced cooling. Positive feedback and runaway heating, anyone?
You assume the system (the planet, us) cannot successfully change and adapt in a time frame that's near instantaneous by planetary measure.
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Old 06-08-2019, 16:28   #651
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc1 View Post
Now there is a man after my own heart.

Unfortunately, CO2 does not make much of a difference to temperatures despite all the fancy graphs. Twice the CO2 does not mean double the effect and half of CO2 does not mean half temperature.

The reality is that no one answers how much CO2 reduction to reduce one degree, because no one knows, and therefore the whole issue is moot. A con, a fraud, picked up by those in search of a cause.

So I am afraid Steven that the natural changes that have occured in the past will occur again and slowly, irrespective of our own wills and wants.
Lush desert however sounds great. May be I can buy a few thousand square Km of Simpson Desert? Sounds like a good long term investment to me ...
actually they have figured all that out and if the united states stopped all co2 emissions today it would have less than .001℃ effect at a cost of hundreds of trillions of dollars and a huge toll in human lives.

As to the effect of different co2 levels look up co2 thermal saturation ( btw its logarithmic)
it will take a near doubling of co2 to increase its ir heat retention by 10% .
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Old 06-08-2019, 16:31   #652
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
You say it starts at the top, I say it starts at the bottom. Countries don't consume fossil fuels. Governments don't consume fossil fuels. Companies don't consume fossil fuels, Advertising doesn't consume fossil fuels, Subsidies don't consume fossil fuels, Other Stuff doesn't consume fossil fuels. Termites don't consume fossil fuels.


People do.



You confuse balance with equilibrium. The Earth will reach a new equilibrium. Remember, the system is non linear. Despite all the hoo-hah no-one has presented a convincing argument on why 1850 was such a Utopia. History paints it somewhat bleaker than that which we enjoy today.




You assume the system (the planet, us) cannot successfully change and adapt in a time frame that's near instantaneous by planetary measure.
the problem with what you propose is while you and I see this as something that starts with the individual the MMGWC see it as requiring major governmental incursion into our lives to have any effect at all . And they are willing to go business as usual till the government gets involved.
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Old 06-08-2019, 16:32   #653
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

The beneficial impacts of carbon dioxide on plants may also be limited, said co-author Dr. Philippe Ciais, associate director of the Laboratory of Climate and Environmental Sciences, Gif-suv-Yvette, France. “Studies have shown that plants acclimatize, or adjust, to rising carbon dioxide concentration and the fertilization effect diminishes over time.”



Seriously? Are they really going out there way that much to try and twist things, yes maybe when co2 goes past 1500ppm then plant growth slows down, but what a crock of horse manure...


This is the most absurd pile of horse manure i have heard in a long time.


Every commercial plant grower supplements co2 where possible for far increased
yields and have been doing so for longer than any nancy wancy study some
undergrad student could do in on season.


I call complete and utter bull on this one..


You see this is the nonsense i dont like about the "climate change" propaganda
and yes it is propaganda, you cant watch 5 mins of tv without hearing it, david attenburgh or virtually any bbc production has its obligatory dig at climate change at some point, news non stop, slightest with of heat and its climate change, implying global warming, record cold in russia, well we wont cover that!


Big issues in crops this year due to abnormal cold, well we will pretend that doesnt exist, but i bet your backside there are plenty of bets being made in

the options on low crop yields this year.


Its at the stage where people are afraid to speak out in public, especially in academia or on tv, their careers now depend on following suit.


We have extinction rebellion, strangely enough being funded by big oil, whats their angle? what do they gain by funding a movement against co2?


Maybe demonize it so they can make money out of sequestration as well as pumping it, win win for them!


Then you have the non thinkers, who just believe in the tv ,media, 100s of news stations all only showing the same 5 stories. freedom of the press, yeah right.



Who owns national geographic? what are their motives? who owns most of the tv radio ect, what are their motives? Why does climate change get so much press? someone is forcing the issue, its on someones agenda....
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Old 06-08-2019, 16:33   #654
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

I'll admit I haven't read all of this thread - but if a grand conspiracy is being alleged -- wouldn't that require the coordinated and pre-planned involvement of enormous numbers of people, over generations, from different disciplines, many with credentialed reputations to lose, and really nothing to gain for any of them?

Except a few, cut to the bone, research grants from corrupt higher ups, who also must all be coordinated with the conspiracy, over generations? What do any of those people have to gain?

I believe many scientists, believing in man-made climate change, would all very likely be paid more money, personally and professionally, by being willing to work for any large oil company, or quasi-political organization, and conducting and publishing research denying climate change - if I had to guess.

Has anyone compared the personal incomes of scientists (only those primarily supporting themselves by scientific research), based on which side of the fence they sit on? I'd be interested in the results, either way.
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Old 06-08-2019, 16:35   #655
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
here Dr Spencer says otherwise and even explains why including several different datasets

Roy Spencer, PhD

How hard is it to trim 0.04 of the data? NASA did way much more than that for the 1930's.
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Old 06-08-2019, 16:43   #656
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
The lie is the source of the graphs he posted.



They are not from NASA, they are from Tony Heller's blog. https://realclimatescience.com/rewri...ricas-history/

At that point his credibility is highly suspect; to put it mildly.
Just went to the Heller site. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they appear to be the same exact graphs from NASA. The 2019 version even references NASA on the bottom right. Not sure the 1998 version is any longer available direct from NASA since it's been adjusted. Then Heller's got links to the WaybackMachine site which show the graphs again, and they in turn have links to the NASA site as well. Those links didn't work down to the page, but they definitely got you to the NASA website. The 1998 graph just looks like pre-adjustment data.

So I'm not getting where the big fraud is here, or what Newhaul's lying about. Did he not provide the direct links to the NASA site for you to confirm?
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Old 06-08-2019, 16:43   #657
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
You say it starts at the top, I say it starts at the bottom. Countries don't consume fossil fuels. Governments don't consume fossil fuels. Companies don't consume fossil fuels, Advertising doesn't consume fossil fuels, Subsidies don't consume fossil fuels, Other Stuff doesn't consume fossil fuels. Termites don't consume fossil fuels.

People do.
Sorry, I got hung up on the "government expressing the will of the populace", large-scale power generation, planning for the future, transitioning from burning all we can get our hands on as quickly as possible, to meeting all our energy needs for the foreseeable future... trivial stuff like that.


Quote:
You confuse balance with equilibrium. The Earth will reach a new equilibrium. Remember, the system is non linear. Despite all the hoo-hah no-one has presented a convincing argument on why 1850 was such a Utopia. History paints it somewhat bleaker than that which we enjoy today.
Ok, let's use equilibrium. More letters. MAYBE the earth will reach a new equilibrium. Maybe that equilibrium will initially be mostly desert and weeds because the rapidity of warmup was more than most established biomes could either adapt to or pack up the station wagon and head for the hills.


Are you confident that the new equilibrium will be at conditions you'd want to call home?


Quote:
You assume the system (the planet, us) cannot successfully change and adapt in a time frame that's near instantaneous by planetary measure.
Kinda worried about it, yeah. We both agree that humanity hasn't been a terribly great thing for the rest of the planet's tenants in any event. Stuff's already f'ed up. Still, hell of a bet you're placing.
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Old 06-08-2019, 16:47   #658
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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Originally Posted by Hardhead View Post
I'll admit I haven't read all of this thread - but if a grand conspiracy is being alleged -- wouldn't that require the coordinated and pre-planned involvement of enormous numbers of people, over generations, from different disciplines, many with credentialed reputations to lose, and really nothing to gain for any of them?

Except a few, cut to the bone, research grants from corrupt higher ups, who also must all be coordinated with the conspiracy, over generations? What do any of those people have to gain?

I believe many scientists, believing in man-made climate change, would all very likely be paid more money, personally and professionally, by being willing to work for any large oil company, or quasi-political organization, and conducting and publishing research denying climate change - if I had to guess.

Has anyone compared the personal incomes of scientists (only those primarily supporting themselves by scientific research), based on which side of the fence they sit on? I'd be interested in the results, either way.

Its fairly easy actually, who controls the grant money for scientific research?
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Old 06-08-2019, 16:47   #659
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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here Dr Spencer says otherwise and even explains why including several different datasets

Roy Spencer, PhD

SPENCER!!!


Everybody drink!
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Old 06-08-2019, 16:48   #660
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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Originally Posted by SailOar View Post
"Independent" shouldn't be mistaken for "discerning".
Whatever it is that has you so invested in this that you find it personally offensive.
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