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Old 22-08-2019, 05:19   #1876
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Agriculture and food
According to UN Environment’s Emissions Gap Report 2018, food systems from production to consumption have the potential to mitigate up to 6.7 gigatons of CO2 equivalent, which is second only to the energy sector. We need a global food transformation in the next 12 years in which food waste is halved and diets and health are improved through decreased animal protein intake. We also need to incentivize climate-smart and sustainable agriculture and end the current unjust food situation in which over 820 million people are undernourished.

Buildings and cities
....Vast amounts of urban infrastructure are to be built in the coming 15 years as rural-urban migration accelerates... There are huge opportunities here to retrofit existing buildings, improve building standards, and rethink urban planning such as by providing incentives for mini-grid solutions. We also need to tackle human-induced methane, nitrous oxide and CF11 emissions, and find smarter solutions for cooling, heating and waste management.
At least in the US, in the short-run, the CC "we needs" with respect to business opportunities (e.g. building retrofits) will be, are being addressed, at dreadful carbon footprint costs. Addressed by teams of guys each driving their own quad-cab late model diesel truck to the worksite with huge carbon footprint lifestyles, probably sub-contracted by a firm that skims more than sufficient funds to render the totality of all necessary retrofits (and/or new builds) quite simply financially unsustainable. That's just how it is while to conclude otherwise is fanciful (at least from my perspective).

Regarding the rural-urban migration and synchronicity. Take a look at this torroid and see if you can infer any useful, usable information from looking at the torroid and hearing what the narrator has to say while considering the historical record with respect to high density population centers, disease, war, etc (the torroid video is from a National Geographic clip on the ocean).
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Old 22-08-2019, 05:43   #1877
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

Ocean acidification and warming affect skeletal mineralization in a marine fish

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/d...rspb.2018.2187

Abstract

Ocean acidification and warming are known to alter, and in many cases decrease, calcification rates of shell and reef building marine invertebrates. However, to date, there are no datasets on the combined effect of ocean pH and temperature on skeletal mineralization of marine vertebrates, such as fishes. Here, the embryos of an oviparous marine fish, the little skate (Leucoraja erinacea), were developmentally acclimatized to current and increased temperature and CO2 conditions as expected by the year 2100 (15 and 20°C, approx. 400 and 1100 µatm, respectively), in a fully crossed experimental design. Using micro-computed tomography, hydroxyapatite density was estimated in the mineralized portion of the cartilage in jaws, crura, vertebrae, denticles and pectoral fins of juvenile skates. Mineralization increased as a consequence of high CO2 in the cartilage of crura and jaws, while temperature decreased mineralization in the pectoral fins. Mineralization affects stiffness and strength of skeletal elements linearly, with implications for feeding and locomotion performance and efficiency. This study is, to my knowledge, the first to quantify a significant change in mineralization in the skeleton of a fish and shows that changes in temperature and pH of the oceans have complex effects on fish skeletal morphology.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

and for us laymen --

Research depicts its negative effects on fish skeletons

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...ish-skeletons/
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Old 22-08-2019, 06:06   #1878
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
sorry for the old-time narrative talk, but it's how people used to talk if they wanted to convey perspective...
Not a problem; thank you for taking the time to respond.
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For pragmatic reasons alone I think it makes zero sense to discuss of things "denial." ......if you're seeking global buy-in to such a thing as AGW policy, sooner or later the narrative is literally going to have to change. [FWIW I studied this phenomenon as part of international relations political science coursework, but it also applies in everyday life if you stop and think about it]
... Maybe just call them a skeptic and move on....
I hear you, you're not the first to say it. But there is a difference between skepticism ("I'm not yet convinced") and denial ("I'm going to oppose this no matter what I hear or see"). There isn't a copyright on the word, it's still in common use . Denial is the most accurate word, in many cases.

If I truly thought there were people here on these threads who could be persuaded, yeah maybe I'd tone it down. But there doesn't seem to be any; the stuff the "skeptics" throw out pretty much indicates a closed mind.
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It's quite interesting to see so much interest the topic of climate change coming from people who, I don't know how to put it...have no street credibility when it comes to principally applying one's self to such a greater good. Accordingly, I tend to lump a lot of AGW people into latter-day saints, existential crisis folks, people with regrets that want to cause good...you name it. How many have been vegetarian for how long? How many have lived a lifestyle clearly of service that didn't include a nice big house, routine fresh cars, etc? I genuinely don't mean to knock such people, but the amateur anthropologist in me does want to call attention to the phenomenon. Ordinarily reformed folks are humble with their circumstances while the proselytizer more or less feels like they've lost Pascal's wager already and are doubling-down trying to make up for it. Such folks are quite annoying and problematic for "true believers" trying to work in the field (if that makes any sense in this otherwise long ramble).
While true, this is just a longer more erudite version of "you can't credibly speak about climate change because you're not a solar-powered vegan cycling cave dweller", and I don't buy it. I've deliberately avoided discussing what we do personally, because I believe that the required response is a collective one, and that voluntary individual action will never be sufficient. Same as private charity has not eliminated hunger.

Yes, CC is, among other things, a cause célèbre among the limousine liberal set, and this must look like absurd posturing from outside the 1st world. Having more experience with the developing world, and possibly a true believer working in the field - don't beat me with it; please let us know where CC ranks in importance to the developing world, and what the most appropriate response would be from that perspective.
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To the point of 1st world R&D, leadership, etc. The problem I have is that much of the developed world in recent decades exists in a consumer state borne by the sweat of the developed world, where today much of the developed world plays with Monopoly money and the supermajority of the populations are in debt, ultimately/frequently to certain developing world countries. I just don't see how any of this is economically sustainable. Again, we haven't even figured out the starving bit, while our priorities (i.e. demands of the public) are nearly exclusively consumption. I hope I'm wrong, but that's how I see it.
You're preaching to the choir here. And sort of making the case for CC action but broader; we can ignore all warnings and carry on full-tilt til something breaks, or we can be honest about what's happening and could happen, and try to moderate or change course.

In the meantime, there's currently enough Monopoly money still rolling around that we could easily spare some to further incentivize the development of cleaner and more sustainable technology. These in turn could be future sources of "wealth" and jobs, in both the developed and developing countries.
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No debate from me here. I appreciate not just the financial cost, but also the temporal opportunity cost. That said, I don't see AGW doing everyone in...I see other things occuring first which will ultimately reduce emissions (e.g. biologic, conflicts, solar weather, etc).
The idea that AGW will "do everyone in" is wrong, and the pro-AGW side is at fault for often implying that.
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If you tell me that putting all efforts into mitigating AGW will itself have a substantial long-term impact, then I really need to see the rest of your thought ledger...your imagination...how you conceptualize all the other integral factors that exist in the world that allows you to conclude that the current AGW mitigation strategy is going to be effective where so many other significant human struggles have failed.
...I'm not telling you that we must put "all efforts into mitigating AGW". I'm saying we need to get past denial (especially organized institutional denial), and address the legitimate concerns of skeptics, and go from there.

Yes i'm naive. But I do not believe in going gentle into that good night.
Quote:
The attached list from the Drawdown site are things in principle we ought to be doing anyway, but the payback on many/most of them is a long-term pipe dream while being completely, I mean completely unrealistic to expect out of emerging/developing cultures around the world. I really wonder how much some AGW proselytizers have seen of how many of the currently marginalized 7+ billion people on the planet actually live.
I think that many of the things on that list are cases of spending differently, not more, and that payback on many of them is actually quite fast. Simple example - bike lanes in cities.

Yes, many items on that list would be absurd in a developing country. Again, please share your perspective on what priorities the developing world has, and where they coincide or conflict with the mitigation of AGW.
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Old 22-08-2019, 06:46   #1879
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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Originally Posted by geoleo View Post
SOOO - if all this teeming humanity of 9 billion peeps have caused CO2 to ruin the world (Isnt this the leftists claim?) AND 9 billion peeps exhale CO2 ( not to mention all the cars, electricity, industrial activity like producing furniture and food and all-let alone flying around in private jet airplanes while going to useless meetings trying to look important)...…. then the ONLY AND FINAL SOLUTION TO SAVE THE PLANET is to severely reduce all the PEEPS (people). Now I welcome suggestions from all the "believers" as to how to reduce (lets face it -KILL OFF) 5 billion people please come out with your 'suggestion' right here and now . Also include if you volunteer to be included in the first of the 5 billion people to be killed.
The CO2 emitted through respiration contributes NOTHING to atmospheric CO2 levels.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/en...lem-far-global
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Old 22-08-2019, 08:35   #1880
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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So lordGord---if winds are declining due to CO2 why are the "believers" yelling about all the hurricanes caused by CO??? Something is not jiving.



Maybe all the wind turbines have sucked the energy out of the wind!
LOL
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Old 22-08-2019, 08:52   #1881
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
The CO2 emitted through respiration contributes NOTHING to atmospheric CO2 levels.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/en...lem-far-global
ok if you say so . Humans eat plants ( directly and indirectly via meat) so we are releasing otherwise sequestered carbon.
So we do contribute to the co2 in the atmosphere abet it is part of the " natural " carbon cycle. If we had half the number of people we would actually likely reduce the human based sources of atmospheric co2 by 75% thereby restoring balance to the system.

Or at least that's what the people pushing the eugenics movement seem to be saying.
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Old 22-08-2019, 08:53   #1882
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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Originally Posted by stevensuf View Post
Maybe all the wind turbines have sucked the energy out of the wind!
LOL
according to one study its due to all of the new vegetation growth .
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Old 22-08-2019, 09:22   #1883
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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So lordGord---if winds are declining due to CO2 why are the "believers" yelling about all the hurricanes caused by CO??? Something is not jiving.

Kerry Emanuel is a leading expert on hurricanes and climate change.

Quote:
Interestingly, it’s still uncertain whether global warming will lead to more or less frequent hurricanes. But in terms of catastrophic damage, storm frequency seems less important than the severity of storms, where climate change does have a clear footprint.
https://climate.mit.edu/kerry-emanue...and-hurricanes

Quote:

In the long term, whether we will see fewer or more tropical cyclones in the Atlantic or in other basins as a consequence of anthropogenic climate change is still much-debated. There is a mounting consensus, however, that we will see more intense hurricanes. So let us revisit the question of whether global warming is leading to more intense tropical storms. Let’s take a step back and look at this issue globally, not just for the Atlantic.

A significant global increase (95% significance level) can be found in all storms with maximum wind speeds from 175 km/h. Storms of 200 km/h and more have doubled in number, and those of 250 km/h and more have tripled. Although some of the trend may be owing to improved observation techniques, this provides some evidence that a global increase in the most intense tropical storms due to global warming is not just predicted by models but already happening.
Does global warming make tropical cyclones stronger? « RealClimate
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Old 22-08-2019, 09:31   #1884
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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really there is no connection to hurricanes and climate change .

You can find papers from the same agencies advocating that MMGW will cause more and cause fewer hurricanes .

I covered this a long way back .
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Old 22-08-2019, 09:34   #1885
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

Here is an interesting study that goes with the study concerning the slowing of surface winds due to increased vegetation
CO2 Science
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Old 22-08-2019, 10:33   #1886
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
Here is an interesting study that goes with the study concerning the slowing of surface winds due to increased vegetation
CO2 Science
I don't think that's the case, however the higher temperature (bcs of CO2) of upper atmosphere means weaker ascending air flows and thus less winds. The hurricanes are also dependant of the temperature differences but tropical seas warm up and radiate the heat another way compared to dry land.
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Old 22-08-2019, 10:55   #1887
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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I don't think that's the case, however the higher temperature (bcs of CO2) of upper atmosphere means weaker ascending air flows and thus less winds. The hurricanes are also dependant of the temperature differences but tropical seas warm up and radiate the heat another way compared to dry land.
well according g to the study by the Chinese that Gord posted .
They say differently than you do and they have the PhD's

https://www.nature.com/articles/ngeo979
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Old 22-08-2019, 11:02   #1888
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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... I covered this a long way back .
Except, none of your "actual climate pronouncements' cartoon, actually represent historical reality. Repetition won't make it so.
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Old 22-08-2019, 11:03   #1889
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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ok if you say so . Humans eat plants ( directly and indirectly via meat) so we are releasing otherwise sequestered carbon.

You really don't understand the carbon cycle at all, do you?
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Old 22-08-2019, 11:06   #1890
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Re: Ocean acidifcation .

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well according g to the study by the Chinese that Gord posted .
They say differently than you do and they have the PhD's
https://www.nature.com/articles/ngeo979
From the Abstract:
"Surface winds have declined in China, the Netherlands, the Czech Republic, the United States and Australia over the past few decades1,2,3,4. The precise cause of the stilling is uncertain. Here, we analyse the extent and potential cause of changes in surface wind speeds over the northern mid-latitudes between 1979 and 2008, using data from 822 surface weather stations.

We show that surface wind speeds have declined by 5–15% over almost all continental areas in the northern mid-latitudes, and that strong winds have slowed faster than weak winds. In contrast, upper-air winds calculated from sea-level pressure gradients, and winds from weather reanalyses, exhibited no such trend.

Changes in atmospheric circulation that are captured by reanalysis data explain 10–50% of the surface wind slowdown.
In addition, mesoscale model simulations suggest that an increase in surface roughness—the magnitude of which is estimated from increases in biomass and land-use change in Eurasia—could explain between 25 and 60% of the stilling.

Moreover, regions of pronounced stilling generally coincided with regions where biomass has increased over the past 30 years, supporting the role of vegetation increases in wind slowdown."
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