Microplastics update, the news is not good

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

But you have your reusable poly shopping bags with you, and/or a knapsack or dufflebag, so it's not a problem, right?

Me personally nope i dont. I have a plastic collapsible cart. But my prior atatement is in general not personally specific.

Does everyone always carry a reusable plastic bag with them when the wife calls and says on the way home stop at the store and oick up some ______________ ( fill in the blank)

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by thinwater

This was never true. (I have worked at disposal wells)


Imagine pumping waste down into a very fine sandstone sponge. In fact, the waste pumped down hole must be very well filtered of solids to prevent clogging the well structure.

I was thinking more along the lines of this.. only instead of salt water using liquefied waste

Disposal Works. Salt water is typically ejected from the wells into natural underground formations sealed within impenetrable rock to prevent the salt water from escaping into surrounding soil and groundwater.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Really? Has there been a study that compares, say, plastic grocery bags to paper and cloth? Or those mixed plastic/cloth reusable bags they sell in the grocery stores for a buck? Would a biodegradeable plastic grocery bag, that finds a second life as a garbage bag be better in the long run than one of those reusable bags that gets used for a year then ends up in a landfill?
I honestly don't know the answer, but I don't think anyone is asking the question before enacting these bans. I'd like for the politicians to ensure that the "great new idea" isn't worse than the status quo.

Yes, as noted at our “Plastic pollution in our seas” thread (#135) ➥ http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post3030401

I suspect you may well be right. It's a complicated issue, which isn't likely to have simple solutions.

A 2018 Danish study, looking at the number of times a bag should be reused, before being used as a bin liner and then discarded, found that:
polypropylene bags (most of the green reusable bags found at supermarkets) should be used 37 times
paper bags should be used 43 times
cotton bags should be used 7,100 times.
➥ https://www2.mst.dk/Udgiv/publicatio...93614-73-4.pdf

A UK study, which only considered the climate change impact, found that to have lower global warming potential than single-use plastic bags:
paper bags should be used three times
low-density polyethylene bags (the thicker plastic bags commonly used in supermarkets) should be used four times
non-woven polypropylene bags should be used 11 times
cotton bags should be used 131 times.
➥ https://assets.publishing.service.go...11buan-e-e.pdf

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Yes, as noted at our “Plastic pollution in our seas” thread (#135) ➥ http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post3030401

Thank you Gord. My point wasn't specifically about plastic bags; it was just an example, but obviously a good one. As you have shown, someone has studied plastic bags and they can have less of an effect on the environment than all of the reusables - yet they're banned in many place and Canada is planning on banning them. Are there similar studies on all the other so-called single-use plastic products? But what are the chances that the politicians have read them?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I don't believe waxed paper is recyclable. Banning single use plastic is low-hanging fruit for politicians - it doesn't balance the pros and cons of the alternatives against those of the "bad" plastics. There are probably many instances where continued use of plastic makes more sense, but could be offset by a focussed recycling effort.

BTW, other day at work I go by the 'recycling station' we have in place of a garbage can. 4 bins - paper, recyclables (cans, plastics), organics and waste. Janitor is there, dumping them all into 1 big plastic garbage bag

It may not be, but if it’s not, bees wax and thin paper is certainly biodegradable.
The issue with plastic isn’t that it’s not recyclable, it’s that it hangs around for a very long time, sort of like nuclear waste.

[thinwater]

Of course, all you have to do to keep plastic bags (and straws and most items) out of the seas is not to litter.


We should have learned that one 50 years ago. But I guess we didn't. I'm not perfect, but I NEVER throw anything in the ditch. I bet you don't. Some do, I pick it up every time I go for a walk.



How hard is that?

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

It may not be, but if it’s not, bees wax and thin paper is certainly biodegradable.
The issue with plastic isn’t that it’s not recyclable, it’s that it hangs around for a very long time, sort of like nuclear waste.

Ahh, but your waxed paper isn't necessarily beeswax is it? Most is paraffin, and all waxes are resistant to being broken down. Whereas it is fairly easy to make plastic bags biodegradable. Those plastic bags could be made from soy or corn oil. So instead of an outright ban, why not push a sensible change?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Ahh, but your waxed paper isn't necessarily beeswax is it? Most is paraffin, and all waxes are resistant to being broken down. Whereas it is fairly easy to make plastic bags biodegradable. Those plastic bags could be made from soy or corn oil. So instead of an outright ban, why not push a sensible change?

actually waxed paper is compostable not recyclable

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Ahh, but your waxed paper isn't necessarily beeswax is it? Most is paraffin, and all waxes are resistant to being broken down. Whereas it is fairly easy to make plastic bags biodegradable. Those plastic bags could be made from soy or corn oil. So instead of an outright ban, why not push a sensible change?

I wasn’t calling for a ban, I actually showed a link to biodegradable plastic bags, and talked about the starch packing peanuts, I don’t have any thing against plastic if it degrades into a benign substance over a short time, but most cheap plastic doesn’t.
Nor did I specify what kind of wax, but it could be bees wax, be a good reason to raise more bees, cause among other things we need more bees.

[Reefmagnet]

Where I live, plastic single use grocery bags have been banned and for 15 cents you can buy a heavier plastic "reusable" bag.


I run an AirBnb and get to experience a pretty good subset of society's approach to recycling. I have three bins. One for rubbish, one for recyclables and one for drink bottles and containers that tend to end in stormwater that we get 10 cents each for when returned to a recycling centre. All are clearly marked. I also have two large compost bins avaialble.



It's sad to report that every week, with few exceptions, I have to fish recyclables out of general waste and vice versa. My drink container collection even needs the rubbish removed at times and it's a regular event to have to transfer these containers from the recycling bin to the container bin.


But I digress, the thing that annoys me the most is that much of this waste is placed in those 15 cent reusable bags. Reusable bags that we supply the guests that we constantly need to top up unless we have the odd bunch of guests that "get it" and use the available single use rubbish bags. Speaking of which, usage has skyrocketed ever since the plastic single use grocery bag ban was introduced.


Anyway, since I'm ranting, the wife and I now live on the boat half the time now and in reading this thread I was reminded that plastic beads are put into toothpaste and every time I brush my teeth on board I can't help but think I'm making my own contribution to destroying the ecology of the planet. I'm sure that nothing proves the absolute stupidity of the modern world as much as thinking that putting micro beads of plastic into toothpaste is a good idea!

[StuM]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Me personally nope i dont. I have a plastic collapsible cart. But my prior atatement is in general not personally specific.

Does everyone always carry a reusable plastic bag with them when the wife calls and says on the way home stop at the store and oick up some ______________ ( fill in the blank)

Yes. One in my computer bag that goes most places with me and a couple in the car (which are then hung by the saloon door so that we remember to take them back to the car)

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by newhaul

actually waxed paper is compostable not recyclable

The first page of google hits suggests that it is not (or at least not very) - wax resists digestion by microbes and if most waxed paper is petroleum-based paraffin, then do you want it in your compost?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Me personally nope i dont. I have a plastic collapsible cart. But my prior statement is in general not personally specific.

Assuming you don't throw out your cart after one use, it's all good.

Does everyone always carry a reusable plastic bag with them when the wife calls and says on the way home stop at the store and pick up some ______________ ( fill in the blank)

Also yes. We have a small pile in the trunk of the car, and I have a neat foldup one (a freebie from IBM at some trade show or other) in my knapsack. We also have mesh bags on the boat, and they fold up to nothing.


It's not a hard habit to form. People used to use baskets or similar before all this free bag nonsense.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

The first page of google hits suggests that it is not (or at least not very) - wax resists digestion by microbes and if most waxed paper is petroleum-based paraffin, then do you want it in your compost?

I hate to say either you don’t understand or just want to be argumentative, I’m not sure.
We aren’t talking about they way it is, but rather with just a little effort the way it could be. We could have bees wax paper, and biodegradable plastic bags, both already exist, nothing has or be invented.
I’m sure it would cost more though, surely plastic was so widely adopted because it was the cheapest option, I assume.
Perfectly acceptable alternatives exist, it’s simply a matter of adopting them is all.

[john61ct]

Simply a matter of putting the structural incentives in place, keep ratcheting them up, both carrot and sticks until the desired result is achieved.

If the uncaring citizenry don't rise up with pitchforks first, claiming the right to destroy our environment's ability to support future generations.

Which I suspect is a likely outcome if effective measures are tried.

But no more than token greenwashing is even more likely though.

Sorry I'm not more optimistic