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Old 06-12-2019, 18:30   #46
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Re: Microplastics update, the news is not good

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I actually showed a link to biodegradable plastic bags,
Didn't see that - where is it?
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I hate to say either you donít understand or just want to be argumentative, Iím not sure.
We arenít talking about they way it is, but rather with just a little effort the way it could be. We could have bees wax paper, and biodegradable plastic bags, both already exist, nothing has or be invented.
Iím sure it would cost more though, surely plastic was so widely adopted because it was the cheapest option, I assume.
Perfectly acceptable alternatives exist, itís simply a matter of adopting them is all.
If you "hate to say it", then don't; if you have to resort to insults, then surely the strength of your argument is wanting.
We may be seeing the same coin from opposite sides. But I think you've missed the gist of my point - that you have to look at the environmental impact of the alternatives before you force out the plastic, simply because it's plastic. It might not just be cost that brought us plastic in the first place - it's light, it's strong, it's effective. Plastic bags don't disintegrate in the rain, plastic straws don't crumble in your drink. You can probably ship 100 times the number of plastic bags than paper bags in any given shipment. Simply saying "let's go back to what we used before plastic" is sophomoric; unless you understand the total cost (environmental as well as economic) of the alternatives. Can we produce enough beeswax to replace all the plastic cereal et al bags? How clean is beeswax production? How biodegradable is it? It may be natural, but it's still a wax - the bees use it because it doesn't break down. Top of the google page:

Quote:
Beeswax can be put in compost piles but can take a very long time to break down. They aren't recommended for home compost heaps.Mar 4, 2018
Can You Compost Candles & Candle Wax? - Organic Lesson


https://www.organiclesson.com õ can-you-compost-candle




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Old 06-12-2019, 18:40   #47
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Re: Microplastics update, the news is not good

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Didn't see that - where is it?


If you "hate to say it", then don't; if you have to resort to insults, then surely the strength of your argument is wanting.
We may be seeing the same coin from opposite sides. But I think you've missed the gist of my point - that you have to look at the environmental impact of the alternatives before you force out the plastic, simply because it's plastic. It might not just be cost that brought us plastic in the first place - it's light, it's strong, it's effective. Plastic bags don't disintegrate in the rain, plastic straws don't crumble in your drink. You can probably ship 100 times the number of plastic bags than paper bags in any given shipment. Simply saying "let's go back to what we used before plastic" is sophomoric; unless you understand the total cost (environmental as well as economic) of the alternatives. Can we produce enough beeswax to replace all the plastic cereal et al bags? How clean is beeswax production? How biodegradable is it? It may be natural, but it's still a wax - the bees use it because it doesn't break down. Top of the google page:


https://www.amazon.com/slp/biodegrad...gsdrpraft7a7d9

we are not talking about candles here in the compost bin.

We are talking waxed paper . Here is a great option. Even burning it would be carbon neutral.
https://www.ifyoucare.com/baking-cooking/waxed-paper/
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Old 06-12-2019, 19:12   #48
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Microplastics update, the news is not good

I must be getting old or posted links to biodegradable plastic bags in another thread.
But here is an article on one such bag, and you can buy biodegradable bags everywhere, but I suspect just like everything else, their may be some marketing lying going on, there always is. Meaning some really are and some may not be.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/...ade-of-plants/

The answers are there, just the desire to implement them isnít.
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Old 06-12-2019, 19:30   #49
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Re: Microplastics update, the news is not good

Knew I wasnít crazy, there is an almost identical thread running
Plastic pollution in our seas
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=195833
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Old 06-12-2019, 20:24   #50
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Re: Microplastics update, the news is not good

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... I was reminded that plastic beads are put into toothpaste and every time I brush my teeth on board I can't help but think I'm making my own contribution to destroying the ecology of the planet. I'm sure that nothing proves the absolute stupidity of the modern world as much as thinking that putting micro beads of plastic into toothpaste is a good idea!

I wonder if they labeled this clearly what that would do for their sales?
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Old 07-12-2019, 03:41   #51
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Re: Microplastics update, the news is not good

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I must be getting old or posted links to biodegradable plastic bags in another thread.
But here is an article on one such bag, and you can buy biodegradable bags everywhere, but I suspect just like everything else, their may be some marketing lying going on, there always is. Meaning some really are and some may not be.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/...ade-of-plants/

The answers are there, just the desire to implement them isn’t.
The company, Avani Eco based in Bali, has created a bag that they say looks and feels like plastic, but is made out of cassava. In other words, it may be biodegradable, but it’s not plastic.
Nor are the other noted products.
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Old 07-12-2019, 04:13   #52
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Re: Microplastics update, the news is not good

Yearly production of plastic has grown from 2 million metric tons in 1950, to 380 million metric tons in 2015. In total, according to a paper* published (July 2017) in Science Advances, humans have made 8.3 billion metric tons of new plastics since 1950.
As of 2015, we had already thrown out 6.3 billion metric tons of plastic, or more than 75% of the total made. Of the plastic weíve thrown out, about 9% has been recycled, and 12% has been incinerated. That means the vast majority (nearly 5 billion metric tons) of it is sitting someplace on the planet right now, be it in a dump, or that massive plastic patch in the middle of the ocean.

* ďProduction, use, and fate of all plastics ever madeĒ ~ by Roland Geyer et al.
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/7/e1700782

Public Release: 19-Jul-2017 ➥ https://eurekalert.org/pub_releases/...-sct071417.php
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Old 07-12-2019, 04:57   #53
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Re: Microplastics update, the news is not good

My missus brought some "Multix Greener" food wrap and it's in a recycled cardboard box and the plastic wrap itself is described as "degradable". A quick Google session says "degradable" plastic is designed to break down chemically, but it doesn't decompose meaning it just breaks into smaller and smaller pieces. Not sure if that is really a good thing or a bad thing
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Old 07-12-2019, 08:35   #54
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Re: Microplastics update, the news is not good

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Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
https://www.amazon.com/slp/biodegrad...gsdrpraft7a7d9

we are not talking about candles here in the compost bin.

We are talking waxed paper . Here is a great option. Even burning it would be carbon neutral.
https://www.ifyoucare.com/baking-cooking/waxed-paper/
WTF's the difference? Beeswax is beeswax - it doesn't matter in what form it is. And how can you say burning it is carbon neutral? The carbon is sequestered in the wax and paper - if you burn it, you release CO2 to the atmosphere.
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Old 07-12-2019, 08:38   #55
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Re: Microplastics update, the news is not good

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
My missus brought some "Multix Greener" food wrap and it's in a recycled cardboard box and the plastic wrap itself is described as "degradable". A quick Google session says "degradable" plastic is designed to break down chemically, but it doesn't decompose meaning it just breaks into smaller and smaller pieces. Not sure if that is really a good thing or a bad thing
It depends on the actual plastic; 'degradable' is just an adjective. Nonetheless, if something breaks down chemically, why wouldn't it continue to break down til it simply is no longer the same plastic?
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Old 07-12-2019, 09:13   #56
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Re: Microplastics update, the news is not good

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WTF's the difference? Beeswax is beeswax - it doesn't matter in what form it is. And how can you say burning it is carbon neutral? The carbon is sequestered in the wax and paper - if you burn it, you release CO2 to the atmosphere.
the paper comes from a tree that grew recently absorbing that carbon out of the atmosphere . That soybean wax on the paper is from a recently grown plant that just absorbed the carbon as well so burning the paper is just rereleasing that free carbon. But it would actually not be carbon neutral. About 20% of the carbon from said plants will remain in the ash.

Just like burning wood in a power generating plant or burning bio fuels is considered carbon neutral.


None of these increase the net atmospheric carbon as calculated over the life of the plants that the items are made from.
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Old 07-12-2019, 09:35   #57
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Re: Microplastics update, the news is not good

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the paper comes from a tree that grew recently absorbing that carbon out of the atmosphere . That soybean wax on the paper is from a recently grown plant that just absorbed the carbon as well so burning the paper is just rereleasing that free carbon. But it would actually not be carbon neutral. About 20% of the carbon from said plants will remain in the ash.

Just like burning wood in a power generating plant or burning bio fuels is considered carbon neutral.


None of these increase the net atmospheric carbon as calculated over the life of the plants that the items are made from.
Except for the carbon used in chopping down the tree, planting and harvesting the soy, processing these into the aforementioned products, transport involved in every step of the process, and so on. Nothing is "carbon neutral."
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Old 07-12-2019, 10:01   #58
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Re: Microplastics update, the news is not good

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The company, Avani Eco based in Bali, has created a bag that they say looks and feels like plastic, but is made out of cassava. In other words, it may be biodegradable, but itís not plastic.
Nor are the other noted products.


Define plastic.
Youíll find different definitions, but for the average consumer if it looks like plastic and functions like plastic, itís plastic.
Plastic surgery often doesnít have any plastic in it for example, and paying with plastic is using a credit card, there are many other examples.
Even synthetic oil, the definition of synthetic was at least the subject of one large lawsuit.

To quote an infamous person it depends on what your definition of the word is, is.
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Old 07-12-2019, 11:01   #59
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Re: Microplastics update, the news is not good

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Except for the carbon used in chopping down the tree, planting and harvesting the soy, processing these into the aforementioned products, transport involved in every step of the process, and so on. Nothing is "carbon neutral."
all depends on the way it was accomplished . As well as what made the energy to do the work.
Lets not go down the MMGW rabbit hole shall we.
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Old 08-12-2019, 08:22   #60
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Re: Microplastics update, the news is not good

A recently deceased sperm whale found was found with a tightly wound ball of marine debris in its stomach, including an alarming assortment of plastics.

https://earther.gizmodo.com/horrific...1840151128/amp
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