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Old 12-08-2011, 12:43   #31
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

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I like the idea in principle, but the waste would be horrific.

Imagine sanitary issues. Imagine the amount of crushed fruit in a 53' trailer travelling from California to Alberta. Tomatoes would be paste by the time they arrived even 5 miles from origin.

It's just not a workable idea.

Now, reusable containers? How do you get them back to point of origin? Biodegradable makes sense though.
Fresh fruit is currently not shipped individually wrapped in a sealed plastic disposable container wrapped in cardboard, and shrink wrapped.

I think you are missing the point, yes there is a need for some of the packaging, (particularly shipping containers), but to individually wrap each piece of food multiple times, (often the packaging exceeds the portion size), to be used only one time, then enters the landfill, that is a waste we can reduce.

Take cereal for example, Now each 10 oz portion is wrapped in a sealed plastic, or metalized paper bag, then boxed in a colorful cardboard container with the picture of a cartoon charactor, or athlete on it.

A week later it is another entry in a landfill, (and by the way we used a gallon of oil to manufacture it)...A better way; a durable plastic container with the same advertizing printed on it.

A system that might work, (we have all seen the horror of bulk foods left open to the public for anyone to dredge unwashed hands through it), is to have a sealed hopper behind the counter; you hand your empty clean cereal box to the refilling machine that refills it with the crispy oats, purges it with nitrogen, and reseals it. NO container waste. Just moving the final packaging step from the factory to the consumer. The factory can package the cereal in a 9 cuft plastic cube.

Freight already has to return the empty truck, and the now recycled pallets, and the 50 gal drums for liquids. A bunch of large empty plastic boxes will add little overhead, and could be used to transport ingredients, like raw oats back to the factory, (much cleaner than an open rail car).

Sounds crazy??? At one time A US company marketed a root beer beverage exactly that way. Your first batch of A & W root beer included the cost of an A & W root beer gallon jug. Later batches, you brought the empty back to be cleaned, and refilled from a giant sealed container of fresh root beer at a substantial discount.

It wasn't their marketing method that sunk them, it was the general demise of the 50's era diner, their root beer lives on as a canned store brand.

It is not that there aren't other possible ways to safely, and cleanly transport food to market, (an open dump truck of freshly cooked lasagna on a cross country road trip isn't the only other option). It is there is little incentive, (yes the company makes the same profit selling you the colorful plastic disposable container as it does on the bite of food that came in it).

Right now the cost of using millions of gallons of oil to package food is hidden by not factoring in the cost of the waste disposal.

Most of us wash and reuse the plates we eat our food on. How much more effort will it take to wash the container we bought the food in. Even if this drastic an approach is not used,at least the store can provide the cereal with just the inner sealed plastic bag sized to fit the reusable box.
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Old 05-09-2011, 20:55   #32
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

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From the same report If it finished in 2010 the effect of the radio active material pouring into the ocean from the Japanese atomic reactor disaster hasn't even been looked at here. This one is an even more serious issue with no idea just how far this contamination will spread, word is that it is still happening now.

T1 Terry
Just to put your fears into perspective, the ocean contains 4.5 billion tons of Uranium naturally. Or to use Curies as a unit of measure...1.1 x 10^9 (billion) Curies of Uranium, 3.8 x 10 ^11 Curies Potassium 40, 2 x 10^7 Ci Tritium, 1.8 x 10^8 Ci Carbon 14, 3.6 x 10^10 Ci Rhubidium 87.
Fukishima is quite literally a drop in the ocean.
No need to worry. Our naturally quite radioactive planet won't notice.
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Old 06-09-2011, 07:25   #33
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

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Just to put your fears into perspective, the ocean contains 4.5 billion tons of Uranium naturally. Or to use Curies as a unit of measure...1.1 x 10^9 (billion) Curies of Uranium, 3.8 x 10 ^11 Curies Potassium 40, 2 x 10^7 Ci Tritium, 1.8 x 10^8 Ci Carbon 14, 3.6 x 10^10 Ci Rhubidium 87.
Fukishima is quite literally a drop in the ocean.
No need to worry. Our naturally quite radioactive planet won't notice.
It will still take decades for the local concentrations of these elements to disperse to normal background levels. And centuries to decay to stable elements.
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Old 06-09-2011, 08:02   #34
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

The arrogance of the human race on parade. The very idea of humans being able to eradicate all life on earth is the apitome of arrogance.
Studies have also shown that Egypt, Iraq and Saudi were once lush with forrests and rivers. Lebanon was famous for the cedars. I guess it was those pesky humans that turned it into a desert with only 2 rivers left. Is that what you call "Urban Development"?
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Old 06-09-2011, 08:44   #35
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

The world's population is around 7 millions. If you assume an average stand up space for each human of 1.6 meters high by .4 meters wide by .3 meters thick you could fit the whole human population of the world in a box about 1.1 km each side. Drop the box in the middle of and ocean and within a few months or so there would be virtually no trace of mankind... The earth would keep on spinning, the local fish would have a feeding frenzy, but nothing would change. The world would keep on it's present warming cycle, then cool again etc etc. We wouldn't be missed, so I agree with you NeptunesTrident, it's only our arrogance that makes us think we can change things anything more than to a miniscule degree.
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Old 06-09-2011, 08:57   #36
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

I watched the DVD.Jerry Maquire the other night

in the opening scenes, it said the population was 6 billion. Jeez, when was that film made? Not so very long ago. The worlds population has more than doubled in my short lifetime.

As with all problems, there is no one contributing factor, and no one answer.
But I believe population control is vital, but its the most contentious issue.
The less educated people are, the more they breed, and at the moment, its the ignorant third world which are breeding at an alarming rate, and of course, the one single group who want more consumer products.
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Old 06-09-2011, 11:33   #37
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

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We are committing our grandchildren's suicide.
genocide
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Old 06-09-2011, 11:37   #38
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

I figure if the eruption of undersea volcano's is considered beneficial to ocean health there is absolutely nothing I can do to help or harm them. I tend to ignore the "doomsday criers" untill they start reaching for my wallet.
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Old 06-09-2011, 11:44   #39
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

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(...) (third) world which are breeding at an alarming rate, and of course, the one single group who want more consumer products.
Looks like the end of the world as we know it.

The future is going to be like nothing we can imagine from studying the past.

The good news is that if the end turns out global and dramatic enough, then we will be gone soon and nature will rebound.

b.
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Old 06-09-2011, 13:26   #40
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

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... it's only our arrogance that makes us think we can change things anything more than to a miniscule degree.
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... The very idea of humans being able to eradicate all life on earth is the apitome epitome of arrogance ...
The truly arrogant assumes his views and opinions are “The Truth”; without benefit of any offer of proof.

Forests often catch on fire “naturally”, and eventually burn out. Does that suggest that man can’t start, and extinguish forests fires?
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Old 06-09-2011, 13:44   #41
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

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The world's population is around 7 millions. If you assume an average stand up space for each human of 1.6 meters high by .4 meters wide by .3 meters thick you could fit the whole human population of the world in a box about 1.1 km each side.
Oops, missing a few zeros there big guy.

BTW the analogy is a very poor one as well as can be plainly seen humans individually and collectively have a vastly greater impact on the Earth's biota than 'packed together and dropped in the ocean' may indicate (many regions are in fact hugely degraded/modified by human activity).
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Old 06-09-2011, 14:35   #42
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

I'm only 51, but have been reading and watching shows on how we are going to die within the next couple mof years for all of those years. The problems have never been as great as the degree of the state of fear has made them out to be or we wouldn't be talking about them currently.

I could make many non-PC suggestions for solving the problem.
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Old 06-09-2011, 14:57   #43
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

Yes, I'm against hyperbole or journalistic sensationalism, but if you read the actual scientific papers behind the media-spun headlines, you'll find two things 1) The language used in the papers is usually very careful and not the over the top doom and gloom as reported, however 2) the weight of evidence clearly shows that human activity has nevertheless wrought significant environmental impact.

The lesson pehaps is we should ignore the hype but accept and understand the ecological reality, which isn't that rosy in may cases.
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Old 06-09-2011, 16:58   #44
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Talking Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

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Yes, I'm against hyperbole or journalistic sensationalism, but if you read the actual scientific papers behind the media-spun headlines, you'll find two things 1) The language used in the papers is usually very careful and not the over the top doom and gloom as reported, however 2) the weight of evidence clearly shows that human activity has nevertheless wrought significant environmental impact.

The lesson pehaps is we should ignore the hype but accept and understand the ecological reality, which isn't that rosy in may cases.
Ahhh, no. It dont. The IPCC report has had more than half the scientists request their names be removed. If, by man made warming, you mean setting up weather station sensors over BBQ,s. Then you have a valid point. I remember the 70,s when they cried ice age. In the 30's and 40's the NYT's and others were crying about global warming.

Truth is the earth has been warming sence the last ice age. And for my money, I prefer warm weather. You may wish for the return of the mastadon, but not I.
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Old 06-09-2011, 17:23   #45
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

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The truly arrogant assumes his views and opinions are “The Truth”; without benefit of any offer of proof.

Forests often catch on fire “naturally”, and eventually burn out. Does that suggest that man can’t start, and extinguish forests fires?
So your position is that seein as how man can start a fire, and put it out, global warming is real? I have to say, that is not very convincing. I do believe I will stick with the data collected with the Vostok ice cores. They tend to show some 100,000 years of climate data. The data is on line.
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