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Old 07-12-2019, 09:30   #1
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Green Hydrogen from Wind Farms

I wonder if this could be a major break thru in reducing carbon dioxide in heavy industries?
https://gcaptain.com/orsted-bets-hyd...climate-goals/
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Old 07-12-2019, 09:55   #2
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Re: Green Hydrogen from Wind Farms

Yes, it certainly is a way to "harden" wind energy. I first saw this on the fully charged show. The hydrogen runs fuel cells to recharge the cars, to produce hot water and heat and to light the venue. Siemens is one of the partners involved.

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Old 07-12-2019, 10:18   #3
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Re: Green Hydrogen from Wind Farms

The problem stays the logistics of the hydrogen fuel.
This company seems to have found a very interesting solution:

https://www.hytechpower.com/
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Old 07-12-2019, 10:59   #4
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Re: Green Hydrogen from Wind Farms

I run a company in the renewable energy field and support the transition to clean energy wholeheartedly. I just think hydrogen is an unwelcome distraction to that goal. Hydrogen embrittlement alone is a massive challenge that 99% of folks aren't even aware exists and which is generally completely ignored in any discussion of a "hydrogen economy".
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Old 07-12-2019, 11:04   #5
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Re: Green Hydrogen from Wind Farms

"....Hydrogen embrittlement alone is a massive challenge...."
That was the reason for my posting above.
Hydrogen is the most difficult gas to contain.

I worked for a company engineering industrial hydrogen purification installations.
There is a reason why Elon Musk (very talented engineer IMHO) does not want to work with hydrogen.
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Old 07-12-2019, 11:18   #6
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Re: Green Hydrogen from Wind Farms

Looked at H fuel cells many years ago. To crack hydrogen from water takes a decent amount of energy and even w/a pure H fuel cell, you'll never get all the energy out that you put into breaking the water down. Besides wind, solar could be another source of the energy to break down water into hydrogen and oxygen.

Also one needs to concentrate the hydrogen (into a tank, etc) to make it usable in a fuel cell.That said, if you could generate hydrogen during the day (solar) and store it for later use then you could have something worth while.

Downside is hydrogen is susceptible to exploding if not handled properly and many would be consider it to be too dangerous.


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Old 07-12-2019, 12:27   #7
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Re: Green Hydrogen from Wind Farms

There's no "magic bullet" for climate change. We need them all.

There's a lot of exciting things going on in hydrogen these days - from making it with less electricity to transporting it using existing gas pipelines. With modern approaches, embrittlement isn't the problem it once was. The great thing about hydrogen is you could make it with no CO2 using massive solar farms in empty places like the middle of Australia or the southwest US and then store it in tanks, put it on ships, or pipe it to users.

The smart money is betting on hydrogen to be an important part of the energy mix within 10 years. There's a lot of VC activity in Hydrogen right now.

One exciting thing is that you can react hydrogen with CO2 captured from the air to make E-fuel - a liquid that works like jetfuel and diesel. A plane using it would fly net zero CO2 (see attached report)

Batteries are a better idea than hydrogen for cars that rarely go more than 200 mile a day. That's why Musk didn't consider it for Tesla. But batteries aren't going to work for planes or boats that go far from the grid.

The oil/gas industry is terrified of competition from hydrogen. They've spent decades arguing it's more dangerous than natural gas. But this is changing fast and hydrogen prices are dropping towards parity with other fuels (although not there yet).

https://www.irena.org/publications/2...gy-perspective
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Old 07-12-2019, 12:45   #8
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Re: Green Hydrogen from Wind Farms

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlF View Post
There's no "magic bullet" for climate change. We need them all.

There's a lot of exciting things going on in hydrogen these days - from making it with less electricity to transporting it using existing gas pipelines. With modern approaches, embrittlement isn't the problem it once was. The great thing about hydrogen is you could make it with no CO2 using massive solar farms in empty places like the middle of Australia or the southwest US and then store it in tanks, put it on ships, or pipe it to users.

The smart money is betting on hydrogen to be an important part of the energy mix within 10 years. There's a lot of VC activity in Hydrogen right now.

One exciting thing is that you can react hydrogen with CO2 captured from the air to make E-fuel - a liquid that works like jetfuel and diesel. A plane using it would fly net zero CO2 (see attached report)

Batteries are a better idea than hydrogen for cars that rarely go more than 200 mile a day. That's why Musk didn't consider it for Tesla. But batteries aren't going to work for planes or boats that go far from the grid.

The oil/gas industry is terrified of competition from hydrogen. They've spent decades arguing it's more dangerous than natural gas. But this is changing fast and hydrogen prices are dropping towards parity with other fuels (although not there yet).

https://www.irena.org/publications/2...gy-perspective
Hydrogen + Co2 = e-fuel + O2, = methane = CH4

Right now almost ALL commercial hydrogen is made by cracking methane from Natural gas into Hydrogen + Co2.

Why not take a big shortcut, and burn the Natural gas???
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Old 07-12-2019, 12:47   #9
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Re: Green Hydrogen from Wind Farms

"Oil/gas industry is terrified of competition from hydrogen" ????

Who told you that??? Hydrogen cracking is their best customer.
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Old 07-12-2019, 12:55   #10
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Re: Green Hydrogen from Wind Farms

Most of this technology has been around for awhile, so nothing new. It was more than a decade ago when I looked at making a pure hydrogen fuel cell and making hydrogen by electrolysis of water for the fuel. At that time we were looking at solar to be the power source for the electrolysis.

If you do the calculations of breaking bonds (water) to create hydrogen and then how much power created in the fuel cell, it is a losing proposition. While we wanted this to work, the conclusion was it would be better to store energy (solar, wind) in a highly efficient storage cell (large battery, capacitor, etc.) than attempt to power a fuel cell.
E-fuel is again using a lot of power to do the electrolysis of water to create hydrogen, then combine w/CO2 to form methane (CH4) or swamp gas. Good thing is you could substitute it and pipe it around like natural gas. Just like any carbon based fuel, when you burn methane it still produces CO2 (and water).


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Old 07-12-2019, 13:25   #11
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Re: Green Hydrogen from Wind Farms

A proposal in the Netherlands, to de carbonized the economy ,is to construct 38,000 windmills in the North Sea.
Electricity that can’t be used will be converted to hydrogen
Cost , 400 billion over twenty years
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Old 07-12-2019, 14:21   #12
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Re: Green Hydrogen from Wind Farms

Quote:
Downside is hydrogen is susceptible to exploding if not handled properly and many would be consider it to be too dangerous.
Gosh, ever see the aftermath of a natural gas pipeline explosion? How about gasoline?
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Old 07-12-2019, 14:59   #13
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Re: Green Hydrogen from Wind Farms

Quote:
Originally Posted by capn_billl View Post
Hydrogen + Co2 = e-fuel + O2, = methane = CH4

Right now almost ALL commercial hydrogen is made by cracking methane from Natural gas into Hydrogen + Co2.

Why not take a big shortcut, and burn the Natural gas???
From the article I started this thread with
"Green hydrogen will also have to contend with competition from natural gas, which can be used to make hydrogen as well. That method produces carbon dioxide in the process."

Learning a lot from you guys and if in the next 10 years furnaces to make cement or steel, no longer emit carbon dioxide and is used in other applications, would that not be significant?
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Old 07-12-2019, 15:07   #14
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Re: Green Hydrogen from Wind Farms

Again from that article...challenging but not impossible???

The major challenge is cost. Green hydrogen costs between $2.50 and $6.80 a kilogram to make, due to the relatively high costs of renewable-powered electrolysis, according BloombergNEF. That would need to fall below $2 in order to make renewable hydrogen competitive with coal, and to around 60 cents to beat the cheapest natural gas-based production, according to BNEF.
That cost could come down to be competitive with fossil fuel by 2030, according to Nordstrom. A number of factors would need to fall into place to achieve that, such as increased scale of electrolysis projects, cheaper and more efficient electrolyzers and a higher carbon price, he said.
The executive sees a parallel between hydrogen and offshore wind in terms of their level of development. Just a few years ago, offshore wind was more expensive than nuclear power. Now it rivals coal on cost in some places.
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Old 07-12-2019, 15:27   #15
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Re: Green Hydrogen from Wind Farms

The whole point of this thread is the transition from "Blue" hydrogen (that is made with natural gas) to "Green" hydrogen made from solar, wind, nuclear, or hydro. This looked impossible even five years ago. Today with cheaper wind and solar - it looks inevitable

You can't make gasoline from wind and solar but you can make hydrogen. The gas and oil companies figured this out a long time ago. Try finding a gas station owned by an oil company that fill your hydrogen fuel cell car. In California, the state had to build the hydrogen filling stations because the oil companies refused.

In some areas of the country, electricity generated by wind is already cheaper than natural gas. And it continues to drop. Eventually, hydrogen made from wind and solar will be a cheaper transportation fuel than gasoline. Won't happen this year, or next but the writing is on the wall.
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