Friend found some bitcoins he'd forgotten about lol

[Capn Jimbo]

Whatever one wishes to consider Bitcoin, a Ponzi scheme it is not. A new investor's money is not used to "pay off" another's shares. There are a fixed, known number of coins, and they are bought and sold from one holder to another, an open exchange among equals. There is no scheming investment advisor or middleman to play one against another. Nothing is hidden, or misrepresented. The blockchain is completely public and transparent.

A claim of Ponzi scheming is just plain wrong. Bitcoin may best be thought of as a hedge against future chaos, much as gold or silver bars, with the exception that Bitcoin has a fixed amount (21,000,000) available, and are easily transportable or exchanged anywhere, at anytime, via the net.

No guarantees or made, no new investor funds another's inflated and fraudulent payout with dollars. Ever. But you might compare to our venerated and completely manipulated "dollar" - no fixed number, created without transparency, printed and removed at will - secretly - from our middleman Fed - who reports to no one.

Think twice, speak once.

[jsc7]

The whole "ponzi" or "tulip" thing is just ignorant ranting by people who don't even know what a ponzi scheme is or the tulip craze. The tulip craze for example, lasted for 3 months and modern scholars have determined that the guy who wrote the original account exaggerated it significantly for political purposes.

Of course, the key difference between scams and virtual currencies is that VCs have been growing for 8 years and have real utility. Believe it or not, people actually use VCs to move money around. They are not supposed to be for "investment". The fundamental purpose and use for VCs is for monetary transfer.

I have been listening to the "tulip" crap constantly for the last eight years. I wonder how many years it will take (infinity?) before it stops. Twenty years from now, I will be an old man relaxing in the formal gardens on my estate, the bitcoin price will be in 6 figues, and some ******* gardner will be there "It's tulips I tell you! Tulips!" What should I say? "Yeah, and I am paying you with tulips, buddy. Shut up and mow faster."

[boatman61]

https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-tra...ck-close-week/

'Barclays closed down my bank account after Bitcoin trade' - Telegraph

https://bravenewcoin.com/news/36-bit...onger-with-us/

https://www.ccn.com/banks-still-clos...coin-activity/

Keep mowing the lawn..

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by boatman61

https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-tra...ck-close-week/

'Barclays closed down my bank account after Bitcoin trade' - Telegraph

https://bravenewcoin.com/news/36-bit...onger-with-us/

https://www.ccn.com/banks-still-clos...coin-activity/

Keep mowing the lawn..

Some might argue a couple of the examples provided are perfect use-cases to promote the use of Crypto currencies; thereby eliminating the poorly-acting banking middleman.

As for the exchange failures, there were plenty similar in banking (perhaps you recall the S&L debacle and the MANY banks that failed as a result of subprime mortgage lending?)

I'm not yet on the Bitcoin as currency bandwagon; but it's clear the banking institutions (ala Jamie Dimon) are worried.

[boatman61]

Good luck to all you hoarders..
Me.. I am more a spend as I earn kinda bloke.
Bitcoin and other speculators always remind me of the billionaire who told his son that all his wealth was to be buried with him when he died.. the son wrote a cheque and tossed it in the coffin..

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by jsc7

The whole "ponzi" or "tulip" thing is just ignorant ranting by people who don't even know what a ponzi scheme is or the tulip craze. The tulip craze for example, lasted for 3 months and modern scholars have determined that the guy who wrote the original account exaggerated it significantly for political purposes.

Of course, the key difference between scams and virtual currencies is that VCs have been growing for 8 years and have real utility. Believe it or not, people actually use VCs to move money around. They are not supposed to be for "investment". The fundamental purpose and use for VCs is for monetary transfer.

I have been listening to the "tulip" crap constantly for the last eight years. I wonder how many years it will take (infinity?) before it stops. Twenty years from now, I will be an old man relaxing in the formal gardens on my estate, the bitcoin price will be in 6 figues, and some ******* gardner will be there "It's tulips I tell you! Tulips!" What should I say? "Yeah, and I am paying you with tulips, buddy. Shut up and mow faster."

You don't know that, you have know idea what the price will be, or even if Bitcoin will be around in 20 years, you can't know that because it's impossible to know.

From what you say you know monetary history, what your seeing in our financial markets, our fractional banking system including the central banking experiments combined with your knowledge of that history tell you how this show will end, and I fully agree, it's not hard to see once you look. BUT will Bitcoin be around? There's basically no history, no metrics and no reference points for you to make a prediction either way! No one knows.

Regarding it being a bubble? only looking back from the future will we know if it was a bubble or not. All asset classes can experience bubbles, Bitcoins 8 years old, so? extremely old asset classes like property can and do get blown into bubbles through speculation, 2007 as an example, easy money and speculation equals bubble.

You say Bitcoins not an investment and I agree, but a previous pro Bitcoin poster says it is? We differ in definition of what's an investment. Speculation is the new word for investment apparently, I've retired young by investing, not speculating unfortunately our current world makes everyone a speculator to some degree right now, even those that don't know they are. Some call it money, some call it a currency? What is it? I don't believe it's either right now.

My point is, which I said in previous posts, this is so new that know one really has a clue where it's heading.

What I think is for sure is that a financial reckoning is on the way, this is a result of non sound money and a banking system that abuses this fact. Blockchain or equivalent will be in our future and we will most likely be better of for it. A crypto or cryptocurrencies will be in our future. Which one? Know one knows, because they can't. Decentralised financial system? don't know, but hope so.

The thing with delusion is data gets distorted to suit what one wants to believe. Deluded people don't know their deluded, ask a Jehova witness.

It's very early days.

[newhaul]

Meanwhile bitcoin lost another 2k today down to 14k several days in a row looking a couple k a day . Time will tell . Meanwhile home prices are up 15% over last year here in Seattle.

[rbk]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Meanwhile bitcoin lost another 2k today down to 14k several days in a row looking a couple k a day . Time will tell . Meanwhile home prices are up 15% over last year here in Seattle.

Not to offend Newhaul but this is probably the worst comparison possible. Outside paying cash for a rental property and reaping the monthly benefits is one thing, but acquiring mortgaged property and speculating the market is just as risky as speculating on crypto but the liquidity can be even lower depending on your market. Everyone assumes real estate is a safe bet because they are purchasing something physical, but speculators and fear are what really drive that market just like most others. The other thign to consider with BTC dropping is the 2K is still only an 8%. 8% on a 500k house you'd lose 40k; using a base requirement for owner equity for a new buyer of say 20% you'd see half the equity in your house disappear and if up for renewal this may mean the difference between re-qualifying and not. (very generalised scenario I know) Jut saying

[jsc7]

VCs remind me a little of email and the internet. In 1990 nobody used email except a few students like me. By 2002, 12 years later, more or less everybody was using email, except people in the government who were late adopters.

What is really kind of scary is how few commercial traders are using bitcoin or ripple who could be using it. Right now the main users are people in countries with capitalization problems like China, Iran, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, India, etc. But my guess is that usage will continue to spread. 2nd world countries like Russia are probably next.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by rbk

Not to offend Newhaul but this is probably the worst comparison possible. Outside paying cash for a rental property and reaping the monthly benefits is one thing, but acquiring mortgaged property and speculating the market is just as risky as speculating on crypto but the liquidity can be even lower depending on your market. Everyone assumes real estate is a safe bet because they are purchasing something physical, but speculators and fear are what really drive that market just like most others. The other thign to consider with BTC dropping is the 2K is still only an 8%. 8% on a 500k house you'd lose 40k; using a base requirement for owner equity for a new buyer of say 20% you'd see half the equity in your house disappear and if up for renewal this may mean the difference between re-qualifying and not. (very generalised scenario I know) Jut saying

I get your inference however real estate prices here have maintained that kind of valuation for 10+ years and show no signs of slowing . ( not to say its not going the other way somewhere else.)
example is the house I grew up in was purchased for 35k in 1990 when folks sold it and its now worth 225k ( tax assessment) .
I never was much on the short game.

[daletournier]

OK is Bitcoin money. When I Google "properties of money" this is the very first hit, BTW I think it's quite ironic that this definition comes from a reserve bank, they should read their own definition sometime.. Lol.

From the Federal Reserve of St Louis
The*characteristics of money*are durability, portability, divisibility, uniformity, limited supply, and acceptability.

So does Bitcoin fit into this definition?

Durability, as long as there's computers, electricity, miners I suppose it does? Currently the answer is yes.

Portability, the above also applies to portability, so yes.

Divisibility, I'd say yes.

Uniformity, I'd say yes.

Limited supply? I'd say NO. Can Bitcoin or any other currency be replicated by others? what are its unique qualities that other cryptos can't have or can't replicate ? What's stopping another cryto limiting its coin to 10 million, thus being more limited than Bitcoin? What's stopping tampering down the track to raise that limit if miners collectively change their minds (can this be done?) so to me this is a No. I have not heard one valid argument proving the limitation argument. Happy to be persuaded.

Acceptability, at this stage it's a very big NO. most of the world dosent accept it. Currently transactions are very slow, unlikely to change as it grows, from what I read it will get slower? It has a long way to go to compare to credit cards as transactional tool.

It fails the definition of money. It's also a very poor currency, a means of exchange. As mentioned many times, scalability, transaction costs and lack of speed limit it's value as a currency.

Now, definition of store of value.

A*store of value*is the function of an asset that can be saved, retrieved and exchanged at a later time, and be predictably useful when retrieved. More generally, a*store of value*is anything that retains purchasing power into the future.

With its history of volatility how at this stage could it be considered a store of value. In seven days it gone from 20k to 10k back up to 16k. This is not predictable, there's no way of knowing what your Bitcoins worth tommorow, just not enough history and the history that is there is very volatile, huge price swings in short periods of time.

So if it's not money, at best its a very, very very poor currency and its not a store of value, so what is Bitcoin?

[Olddan1943]

If bitcoins are so good, why is it that most major drug deals still use US dollars?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Olddan1943

If bitcoins are so good, why is it that most major drug deals still use US dollars?

simple USD are accepted worldwide with no questions asked.

[rbk]

Originally Posted by jsc7

VCs remind me a little of email and the internet. In 1990 nobody used email except a few students like me. By 2002, 12 years later, more or less everybody was using email, except people in the government who were late adopters.

What is really kind of scary is how few commercial traders are using bitcoin or ripple who could be using it. Right now the main users are people in countries with capitalization problems like China, Iran, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, India, etc. But my guess is that usage will continue to spread. 2nd world countries like Russia are probably next.

Almost no commercial applications outside crypto hedge funds and the odd retailer that accepts are using bitcoin. Ripple on the other hand is very much ahead in the regulation game and commercial applications are currently being used worldwide with more to complete testing and go live in early 2018. Grouping the two is like pitting a model T against an amphibious, flying Ferrari. Main uses are for remittance (personal remittance is a 1/2tr annually alone) and international money transfer but you're right about huge application for 3rd world countries and 'banking the unbanked' hence the Gates foundation partnership to power Mojaloop With aprox 2 billion unbanked people in the word even if each only had $1 that's a 2 billion untapped market just in savings/store of value alone. Regulation is the absolute biggest hurdle for any financial institution to overcome to utilise blockchain or digital assets and very few are compliant.

[jsc7]

Originally Posted by rbk

Almost no commercial applications outside crypto hedge funds and the odd retailer that accepts are using bitcoin. Ripple on the other hand is very much ahead in the regulation game and commercial applications are currently being used worldwide with more to complete testing and go live in early 2018. Grouping the two is like pitting a model T against an amphibious, flying Ferrari. Main uses are for remittance (personal remittance is a 1/2tr annually alone) and international money transfer but you're right about huge application for 3rd world countries and 'banking the unbanked' hence the Gates foundation partnership to power Mojaloop With aprox 2 billion unbanked people in the word even if each only had $1 that's a 2 billion untapped market just in savings/store of value alone. Regulation is the absolute biggest hurdle for any financial institution to overcome to utilise blockchain or digital assets and very few are compliant.

No commercial applications? You know there are literally millions of people in Venezuela who are using Bitcoin to cope with the threat of starvation?

When I hear smug, rich Americans proclaim how bitcoins have no use, I wish I could take all their dollar accounts and exchange into accounts denominated in Bolivars and force them to live using Bolivars instead of dollars.