Flying Saucers and Sailing

[imagine2frolic]

I love the way some threads evolve. I don't know if I am now smarter on mass, or more confused!

[dacust]

Originally Posted by anotherT34C

It's a common misconception to think "nothing can go faster than the speed of light". Lots of ethereal phenomena can and do. A simple example is a laser-dot. The 'speed' of the dot is proportional to the distance from the source. Make the distance large enough, and the dot goes faster than the speed of light.

Hmmm. Strictly speaking, in your example nothing actually moves from one point to another. The light travels to one point at the speed of light. Different light goes to another point at the speed of light. (And an infinite number of points in between.) It is different light at the different spots. The light doesn't move from one point to the other. Our perception is that it does, but in crossing space, perception won't cut it.

Lots of ethereal phenomena appears to go faster than light.

-dan

[anotherT34C]

Originally Posted by dacust

Hmmm. Strictly speaking, in your example nothing actually moves from one point to another. The light travels to one point at the speed of light. Different light goes to another point at the speed of light. (And an infinite number of points in between.) It is different light at the different spots. The light doesn't move from one point to the other. Our perception is that it does, but in crossing space, perception won't cut it.

Lots of ethereal phenomena appears to go faster than light.

-dan

You're exactly right. I'm defining the laser-dot as an 'object' or a 'thing', but it contains no information, so it is ethereal. It also can go arbitrarily fast (actually). As can, say... a shadow. The important point is that you cannot manupulate a passing superluminal laser-dot (or shadow) to convey information at faster than light speeds.

It's simply an example of a 'thing' that can go faster than light. There are other less intuitive examples in physics, such as correlations. If you split a subatomic particle into two there are some properties that get divided up (like spin, or polarization) equally but opposite. When you measure one's state, the others' instantly becomes defined, even if separated by great distance. The correlation is instant, but ethereal. You cannot manipulate the states to send information. That's the moral... no information can go faster than light.

[DWT]

Originally Posted by anotherT34C

Mmm, I'm just trying to underline how exceeding the speed of light is a problem with the fundamental laws of the universe, rather than an engineering problem.

Interestingly, you don't really need to exceed lightspeed to travel great distances in your lifetime. As you approach the speed of light through space, your speed through time 'slows down' accordingly. There is really no limit on how far you can travel in your lifetime, as long as you can get ever closer to lightspeed (relative to the planets or whatever). What you see as a fast traveller, is that the distance magically shrinks. In that sense, interstellar travel is reduced to an engineering problem (albeit a doozy).

On a related note; Had we continued the Orion project in the 60's, we would probably just now have the first interstellar craft approaching the nearby stars. Too bad. It breaks the heart to watch the old tapes of Carl Sagan rolling out the Orion stardrive plans, and excitedly explaining how we can get to Alpha Centauri in 50 years.

And I am just happy doing 5 knot in my sail boat.

[First Mate]

"[quote=Shu;219110]I am not trying to disprove anyone's theories or say that science is wrong about anything. However I do truly feel that the speed of light will be exceeded some day. We may never live to see it but it will happen. "

I agree with Shu. To me, the universe is one big "construct"...just a grand stage for life. It's here for our use. We're here to use it.

Our understanding of physics is based on a small number of centuries of human study. Almost of all of the centuries of study have been hampered by ignorant mean spirited civilizations that overtly attempted to squash real science.

Still going on really. NPR stated that funding for scientific study of alternative energy hasn't increased since the 1960's. We do like to fund war so that's what we understand best.

The universe and its laws are so vast and complicated we can't even quantify or comprehend it. To assume that none of the "laws" of physics, as we currently we understand physics, can be broken, is indicative of our current myopic understanding of something vast.

It will take the human species a long time to master and understand the physics of the universe, but we will. We will travel distances in a blink.

The distances are only empty space in a field of dimensional planes. We don't even understand or know how many dimensions there are. I believe one possibility is we could slip through another dimension we currently don't comprehend and skip over vast fields of dimensions that we understand and sense.

But enough craziness.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by David M

I still dont see how something with mass is going to be accelerated to the speed of light if it takes infinite energy. Not that it can't be done someday..somehow.

It's interesting to see the different points of view on this subject. Apparently, if you haven't seen one, they just don't exist.

I had one daylight sighting. A huge craft shaped like a cigar, traveling slowly at the edge of a very strong storm cell. I was able to watch it for 5 or 6 minutes before it disappeared into the middle of a big thunder/lightning storm.

Something is up there, yet I agree with the logical thinking that nothing travels faster than light.

I have to ask, why would they have to be from this universe or dimension? Lately, the new research in physics has postulated multiple dimensions.

Our little gray men could be from another dimension and still agree with what we know of physics.

[mikereed100]

I thoroughly enjoy the physics discussions, even though I get a funny sputtering noise in my ears after a couple paragraphs.

Concerning UFO's, to paraphrase William of Ockham, (Occam's razor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) the simplest explanation is usually the best. I think it would be wonderfull if we had visitors from off-world but I just don't think it's likely.

It strikes me that if a civilization were able to overcome the laws of physics and travel across the galaxy and perhaps universe, why hide? And if you are hiding, why turn on your running lights?

While I believe it is probable that intelligent life exists outside of our world, I don't see any reason to believe they are any smarter thatn we are. Intelligence comes with evolutionary pressure and when natural selection no longer occurs, as is the case with human kind, we stop getting smarter. In fact, there is evidence that shows that our intelligence level as a species is in decline. It is reasonable to expect that alien life is subject to the same pressures and restrictions and would therefore not likely be much smarter than us.

On the other hand, I have awakened naked on the lawn with no recollection of what happened the night before so who knows?

Mike

[Tropic Cat]

Yep, like I said, if you haven't seen one, they don't exist. It's funny, I don't consider myself a kook or a wacho. But when I reread what I typed earlier, it sure sounds like I just might be one.

No wonder most folks just shutup when they see something they can't explain. An example, I will follow.

[First Mate]

Originally Posted by First Mate

The distances are only empty space in a field of dimensional planes. We don't even understand or know how many dimensions there are. I believe one possibility is we could slip through another dimension we currently don't comprehend and skip over vast fields of dimensions that we understand and sense

Imagine existence and space as a collection of digital files. Think of how digital files we currently use on computers can be zipped for more compact storage on hard drives. Possibly, the empty space in this universe can be "zipped" in some way comparable to "zipping" digital computer files - the empty matrix is compressed and can be expanded again easily. Possibly travel can be performed on zipped energy levels.

At this early level of scientific understanding by our species, it's possible (probable?) that there are numerous ways that space can be easily compressed that we currently can't even imagine.

It's my opinion that areas of the universe, much older than this area, already have species that have developed to that level of understanding. A race of beings that developed might only be seen if they wanted to be seen. It's possible that even if all UFO sightings to date are not alien visitations, it could still be true that intelligent species more advanced than ours have been here and are here.

I still go to work, pay taxes, and worry about retirement and health care plan. I doubt that the presence or lack of aliens on earth will make a difference in my lifetime, but if they do, it's just one more item to check off my bucket list.

[MidLandOne]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

It strikes me that if a civilization were able to overcome the laws of physics and travel across the galaxy and perhaps universe, why hide? And if you are hiding, why turn on your running lights?

It seems that they only turn on their running lights to the less informed as there is a strong (to all intents and purposes complete) inverse relationship between the numbers of unresolved UFO sightings seen by the informed, such as by professional astronomers, etc (consider the many millions of photos taken of the night sky in the course of their work and the minute analysis of those for change, for example), and by the less informed.

I have seen things which others have believed were UFO's and were not eg a large meteor more than half the diameter of the moon, lights hung under balloons as a prank along the lines another has related - this went on for several weeks in a NZ city in the late 1960's creating national news and a spate of imagined sightings nation wide until the "teenage aliens" identified themselves , aircraft landing lights in cloud, and even large reflective satellites at dusk. I have seen one which would have had me wondering to this day as to what it was (aliens would be very low on my list though) if in the end it did not resolve itself in a very mundane manner.

Many years ago I was hitchhiking and ended up standing beside the road miles from anywhere on a very dark night with high cloud and no stars. Then away quite high up in the sky I saw a string of about 20 bright lights a little bit bigger than dots moving along quite rapidly, occasionally making very sudden changes of direction quite unlike any plane, etc until it very suddenly disappeared. Had me wondering for about 15 minutes when it "apparitioned" about 100 yards away and if I had been in its way it would have severely probed me cos it turned out to be a 2 carriage rail car (a motorised carriage type passenger train) the railway line being on the other side of the road.

A few days later travelling back on the same road in the day time I could see what had happened - the area was a very hilly one and in the direction of where I had seen the lights the railway line wound across the side of a high hill in the distance.

The same as some others my opinion is that given the large size of even the known Universe the probablity that life exits elsewhere is pretty much certain, but we may have to be open minded as to what constitutes life. I also suspect that the probablity that any intelligent life has visited earth to be very low unless intelligent life is commonplace throughout the near Universe ("near" being, say, our own galaxy which is only one of billions in the Universe and only a "mere" 100,000 light years in diameter, a few thousand light years thick depending on where one measures it, and home to several hundred billion stars so just a smidgin of the whole ).

There is no evidence at all that it is commonplace apart from the relations of those who have seen something that they don't understand, or claim to have been abducted and probed. Of those I have met or have read their books, etc relating such experiences that have caused them to believe in aliens, I have yet to come across one whose views are scientifically founded or which cannot be discarded as cranky or fraudulent.

But us aliens have to tell it that way in order to discourage the hunting of us out for probing by earthling scientists. Back to my bottle of Cygna C3 rum, recently purchased from an intergalactic trader, a nice drop it is too .

[anotherT34C]

That's funny... I've never seen you at any of the meetings...

Actually, I'd guess that sailors, hikers, mountaineers, and so on would probably have a higher incidence of seeing the 'unexplained', since they're in an environment that is out of the ordinary (for most folks). My first thought wouldn't be "you're crazy".

Venus shining on the open ocean looks a hell of a lot different than it does in my suburban backyard. When it's 1/2 in shadow, near the horizon, and seen through binoculars, it sure looks like a flying saucer. I've even seen video of Venus, where the camera's autofocus made it look metallic and spinning. I'll see if I can find it...

[anotherT34C]

Here it is...

YouTube - UFO appears during a solar eclipse in Mexico

And remember, it's Venus plus the camera's autofocus.

[David M]

If someone cant identify it as Venus then in that persons mind its still an unidentified flying object.

[Runner]

Someone gave me rules that I follow for all such discussions. Don't tell anyone. If you do tell somone, never write it down. If you do write it down, never ever sign it! Are there unidentified objects in the sky?? You betcha! Are they from another galaxy stopping by to check on the earth for some reason?? Hummm...........

Hasn't everyone woken up naked on someones lawn????

[jrd22]

The original question was have you ever seen a UFO while sailing, to which my answer would be no, but I have seen something inexplicable (to me) on land. My brother and I were in the mountains of NE Washington state bear hunting (actually we were protecting one of my honey bee locations, I was a commercial beekeeper at the time). Bears had been getting into this yard and destroying my hives and the game dept. wouldn't do anything about it so we decided to protect my property. Anyway, as we were watching over the yard on a clear, star filled night (we had been there about an hour or so, and no, we were not drinking) I noticed a "star" move over the crest of the hill behind the bee yard, very slowly, but slightly faster than the other stars were moving (much slower than a typical satellite). It advanced toward us a little ways over the course of several minutes, and then it stopped. If you weren't watching very carefully you would have never noticed that it was even moving in relation to the other stars, but since I was watching the bee yard intently for any sign of motion I did notice it. It looked like the other stars, except there was something different about it that is hard to describe, maybe it was twinkling a bit more. It had my full attention when it stopped, I didn't believe what I was seeing and I kept checking it against the other stars to see if my eyes were playing tricks on me. It was absolutely stationary and the other stars were now moving in relation to it. This went on for a while, I can't say whether it was 10 minutes or 20, but about that range with no motion whatsoever from this "star". At that point I was totally absorbed in watching this thing (forget the bears!) and trying to figure out what the heck it could be, we were well away from any lights, the very little town in the area was four miles away and had no big lights, it obviously wasn't an airplane or helicopter. I ran every scenario I could think of through my brain and could not come up with any explanation. I didn't want to ask my brother if he was seeing what I was because I was afraid he would say no, and where would that leave me? Eventually, I decided that I had to ask him and just as I opened my mouth to speak this "star" disappeared back over the hill from where it had come at an amazing speed. I blurted out "Did you see that?", and my brother said "Yeah, I was just going to ask you if you were seeing what I was seeing? We rehashed what had happened and we each had seen the exact same thing from the time it had first appeared over the hill.
I'm not saying there are aliens visiting us, in fact I doubt it, but there are so many unexplained sightings by knowledgeable, informed people (astronauts, military and commercial pilots, beekeepers:-)) ) that it is an interesting phenomenom. This experience changed me from a disbeliever to an open minded skeptic I guess. As Jody Foster said in Contact, "it would be a terrible waste of space if there was nothing out there", and mathematically, I'm told, it's almost a certainty that there is other life out there.

Thanks to our resident physicists for the interesting discussion.

John