England Headed to EV to Grid as well as Grid to EV

[Ericson38]

UK Regulations proposed for charging electric private vehicles.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...t-response.pdf

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/.../contents/made

For the EV to grid energy flow periods (your car battery energy back to the public grid), doesn't that add additional charge-recharge cycles to your battery, and how to control when they want the energy back (hopefully not on demand on their side).

If on demand on the govt side (since it would be a time when grid power was short), I guess you would not want to travel anyway since you would not be able to recharge.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Ericson38

UK Regulations proposed for charging electric private vehicles.



For the EV to grid energy flow periods (your car battery energy back to the public grid), doesn't that add additional charge-recharge cycles to your battery,

Yes, moderately. But totally within the control of the battery management system, in that one can regulate how much power is available to be drawn V2G and how much is allowed to be G2V. These are smart chargers and can be controlled however one wants, very dynamically.



and how to control when they want the energy back (hopefully not on demand on their side).
If the charger is established as to its charging protocol to be a V2G demand and/or time of day response, then the grid will determine if the power converter is permitted to charge [G2V] or to draw power [V2G]. Such arrangement will be associated with its own tariff mechanism. It is becoming very routine for power drawn from the grid to be charged based on time of day, or on demand response basis, all very standard. The EV is no different than other loads, such as your space heating/cooling, domestic hot water service, a commercial or industrial process.

If on demand on the govt side (since it would be a time when grid power was short), I guess you would not want to travel anyway since you would not be able to recharge.

No that is not how V2G schemes work. One will just need to pay more to charge during periods of time of peak demand or low power generation which is when vehicles are most likjely being tapped as an electrical power supply or as a demand response device when vehicles charging are being reduced or discontinued so as to be included in the demand response category; all merely a market driven commodity pricing and commodity demand / supply process. Seldom would chargers that are operating in demand response mode be totally curtailed from charging, instead their rate of charging is typically reduced to aid in balancing the grid and avoiding having to power up peaking power generators. This is not an all or nothing type power load management scheme. And of course, one can just override the V2G or demand response / time of day power scheme and just plug the car and draw the power you need but may pay more than you would if you charged when the grid is more balanced as to demand and supply. But it is reasonable to expect that rapid charging stations may be curtailed as to their charging rate when the grid is challenged to supply the load, you might find it will take say two or three times longer to charge your vehicle if the grid or the specific charger is regulated to provide such demand response functionality.

Reply above.

[Pete7]

The UK has had a electric house heating system based on storage heaters which charge up during the night on cheap rate electric and then discharge during the day. It fell out of popular use but there are still some customers. My son has a flat with the system and two meters which switch at the appropriate times each day. Can't remember the numbers, but its about a 1/3rd cheaper at night which would encourage customers to time their charging needs carefully.

The current problem is alot of the UK electric supply is generated by burning gas to produce electricity and the price has rocketed 400% over the last 7 months. The UK is fazing out the old coal and oil fired power stations and the gas powered stationed are now 40 years old so also getting on a bit. The daily supply looks like this:

https://grid.iamkate.com/

[Ericson38]

Originally Posted by Pete7

The UK has had a electric house heating system based on storage heaters which charge up during the night on cheap rate electric and then discharge during the day. It fell out of popular use but there are still some customers. My son has a flat with the system and two meters which switch at the appropriate times each day. Can't remember the numbers, but its about a 1/3rd cheaper at night which would encourage customers to time their charging needs carefully.

The current problem is alot of the UK electric supply is generated by burning gas to produce electricity and the price has rocketed 400% over the last 7 months. The UK is fazing out the old coal and oil fired power stations and the gas powered stationed are now 40 years old so also getting on a bit. The daily supply looks like this:

https://grid.iamkate.com/

In California, going 100 miles using EV power is about 25% - 35% of what it costs moving the same vehicle with gasoline, at current prices.

Is that still the case in England, meaning fuel prices are going up at 400% too ?

[edsailing]

Gas in England is not gasoline. US gas is called petrol over here - nearly $2 a litre or $8 a gallon

Gas in UK means imported LNG or 'mined' from gas fields, mainly imported now as our North Sea Gas fields don't produce enough.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Ericson38

In California, going 100 miles using EV power is about 25% - 35% of what it costs moving the same vehicle with gasoline, at current prices.



Is that still the case in England, meaning fuel prices are going up at 400% too ?

Yes price difference would be similar even more if you have access to some form of night rate electricity.

In Ireland I have a Leaf on night rate with is 8 cents a KWh. Nightly charge gives me about 150 km for about €1.5 , current small diesels ar returning about 6 litres /100km average mixed cycle and diesel is currently €1.60 a litre. Meaning an equivalent diesel journey is €11.50.

Petrol is dearer at approx €1.78 per litre

[Ericson38]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Yes price difference would be similar even more if you have access to some form of night rate electricity.

In Ireland I have a Leaf on night rate with is 8 cents a KWh. Nightly charge gives me about 150 km for about €1.5 , current small diesels ar returning about 6 litres /100km average mixed cycle and diesel is currently €1.60 a litre. Meaning an equivalent diesel journey is €11.50.

Petrol is dearer at approx €1.78 per litre

That's pretty good electrical rate (your version of cents). Our Pacific Gas and Electric EV2A rate is 21 cents off peak and 52 cents peak for 1 kw-hour.

https://www.pge.com/pge_global/commo...icing-2020.pdf

Average Tesla uses 34KW-hours for 100 miles driving.

https://www.carshtuff.com/post/how-m...es-a-tesla-use

So maybe $16.00 on the high side (peak) to go 100 miles at our PG&E prices.

For a SUV at 20 mpg (our Porsche Cayenne), I need 5 of those to get to 100 miles, which is 5.00 for premium. So $25 to go 100 miles, which is $9.00 more than the Tesla paying the high rate electrical use factor.

Use a Toyota Rav 4 at 35 mpg, so transits 1.75x as far for same fuel consumption, and then, recharge at lower rates (off peak), being about 50% savings, so the spread between the two modes didn't change much.

Our Electrical rates are high, and fuel costs are low (in comparison) compared to other parts of the world.

[goboatingnow]

That’s very expensive electricity current I pay 8.02 euro cents night rate and 22 cents day. Public fast charging is currently 29 cents per kw/h

[GordMay]

Ontario [Canada] has variable electricity rates, known as off-peak, mid-peak and on-peak, which vary from 6.5 cents/kWh up to 13.4 cents/kWh. According to the Ontario Energy Board, the average household uses 2/3 of their electricity during off-peak hours, with the remainder split between mid-peak and off-peak.
This results in a blended rate of about 11 cents/kWh. [$0.87 US or 0.077 Euro]
The price we pay also depends on how much electricity we use. In the summer, a higher price is used, when we consume more than 600kWh of hydro*, in a given month. In the winter months, the higher electricity price is charged for consumption above 1,000 kWh.

All rates are in Canadian funds [$1 CDN ≈ $0.79 USD ≈ 0.70 Euro]
* ‘Hydro’ is Canadian for electricity.

[Ericson38]

From True Car-

To calculate the cost to fully charge an electric vehicle, simply multiply the cost per kilowatt-hour with the battery’s maximum capacity. Consider the Chevy Bolt, equipped with a 66-kWh battery. Taking the average rate of 13.23 cents per kilowatt-hour, this vehicle would cost the average American $8.73 to go from empty to full. Each EV has a different sized battery, so you’ll have to run the numbers based on your vehicle and electricity costs.

With a 95KwH Tesla Model S, and charging at the EV-A rate plan at off peak costs (fully drained car) $20, and $50 at peak times. So $50 for 400 miles travelled at worse case peak (Tesla model S range extent)

At $5.00 a gallon, and at 20 mpg, need 20 gals to go 400 miles, or $100 - Cayenne.

EV wins at half the energy cost (50 versus 100).

Toyota Rav 4 at $4.20 a gallon and 35 mpg to go 400 miles requires $48.

Need to recharge EV to off peak charging to get the 2x EV efficiency margin back.

[goboatingnow]

It depends. In countries with high petrol costs. The differential is substantially more upwards of 10x in best cases.( ie off peak charging )

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Ericson38

That's pretty good electrical rate (your version of cents). Our Pacific Gas and Electric EV2A rate is 21 cents off peak and 52 cents peak for 1 kw-hour.



https://www.pge.com/pge_global/commo...icing-2020.pdf



Average Tesla uses 34KW-hours for 100 miles driving.



https://www.carshtuff.com/post/how-m...es-a-tesla-use



So maybe $16.00 on the high side (peak) to go 100 miles at our PG&E prices.



For a SUV at 20 mpg (our Porsche Cayenne), I need 5 of those to get to 100 miles, which is 5.00 for premium. So $25 to go 100 miles, which is $9.00 more than the Tesla paying the high rate electrical use factor.



Use a Toyota Rav 4 at 35 mpg, so transits 1.75x as far for same fuel consumption, and then, recharge at lower rates (off peak), being about 50% savings, so the spread between the two modes didn't change much.



Our Electrical rates are high, and fuel costs are low (in comparison) compared to other parts of the world.

Porsche Cayenne urban cycle is 15mpg !!

[Bill Seal]

First of all, EVs don't pay road taxes, so they're freeloading off those of us who do.
We happened to be driving through NorCal when PG@E cut all the power to everything north of San Francisco for 4 or 5 days, The motels didn't have lights or hot water, but the casinos had their own generators (and were giving out portable generators as prizes).
The EVs were all turned into lawn art.
BTW, a Tesla Powerwall contains 13KWH, or two gallons worth of gasoline in a small generator.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Bill Seal

First of all, EVs don't pay road taxes, so they're freeloading off those of us who do.
We happened to be driving through NorCal when PG@E cut all the power to everything north of San Francisco for 4 or 5 days, The motels didn't have lights or hot water, but the casinos had their own generators (and were giving out portable generators as prizes).
The EVs were all turned into lawn art.
BTW, a Tesla Powerwall contains 13KWH, or two gallons worth of gasoline in a small generator.

This Is simply a reflection of the US generation issues rather then EVs

[Pete7]

Why is the price of electric so high in California? to many air conditioners perhaps

How do you generate that electricity or is it bought in?

Pete