Electric Car Economics

[Woodland Hills]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I've been living without a car now for a few years but the time has come when I need to be motorized again -- my work has greatly intensified and in the city where I'm spending most of my time I can't get a taxi sometimes at peak hours, and it is too cold to use a bicycle in the winter (-30C and even colder).


Shopping for cars is kind of fun and there are lots of interesting choices, but I think I'm going to plunk down on an ELECTRIC car this time. It's the ecologically responsible thing to do (especially in a country with a carbon-free power grid), plus an electric car will just be a terrifically fun technological toy.


I think I've decided on a BMW i3 with the little range extending generator.


The first generation ones, even with only 20k - 30k km on them and only 3 or so years old, cost half what the new ones do, so I'm tempted by this, but I'm trying to figure out the economics of used electric cars, which are obviously different from IC cars.


Mainly, the amortization of the battery pack. It looks like the BMW one is good for over 200 000km, and the cost to replace (actually, upgrade to a larger one is something less than €10 000, so straight line depreciation would make the battery cost like €0.05 per km which seems pretty decent.


Otherwise, there doesn't seem like too much difference to an IC car -- electric motor is practically maintenance free, but then a modern IC car engine can also be expected to go 200k km without any investment.


Actually the economics of an electric car do not seem to be compelling at all when compared to a very efficient IC car like a BMW 118d which incredibly only burns 4.5l/100km in city driving, while emitting less than 100gm/km of CO2. That's only 270 liters per year of diesel fuel the amount I drive -- a trivial cost even in a land of highly taxed and expensive fuel.


But I will go with the electric car purely for fun. The BMW i3 is an extremely cool vehicle, with exposed carbon fiber structure, silent running, packaging different and much better than an IC car (park in any space; almost as short as a Smart while having more interior volume than a 1-series).



Grateful for any tips.

We have had two smart cars and an i3. Sold one of the smarts and stored another, the i3 was a three year lease and we returned it when we moved aboard. The BMW was a great car for Los Angeles traffic and I even drove it to Tucson Arizona for a 1000 mi trip. However, if we were shopping for a used electric car today, I’d buy a used Leaf. Not as cool looking, but way cheaper and more range.
The big negative on the i3 is the proprietary tires which cannot be substituted by any thing else, no big deal unless yours make a loud whooping noise when cornering on smooth pavement. I fought with BMW for two years over this, they acknowledged that the noise was there in the early cars, but said it was acceptable and refused to fix it. I am ashamed to admit that they wore me down and that I just gave up fighting over it allowing them to win. And sticking us with a silent motored EV that was incredibly annoying to drive. The noise sounded like a 1950’s spaceship and was loud enough outside that dog walkers and pedestrians would get whiplash turning to stare at the weird sounding car. People would just stop walking and stare until I went out of sight!
Our i3 was the REX and we had a level 2 charge point in our garage, thus we hardly ever used the range extender. On long trips I’d carry a small gas can and refill the tiny tank for extra range between gas stations.
The i3 is also known to lose range dramatically in freezing weather and since the battery is barely of adequate capacity in the first place a 10 to 20% loss of range can be a dealbreaker for some.

[Tillsbury]

Needing a 7-seater and wanting safety, I bought a Volvo XC90 T8 three years ago. It’s been fabulous, charged each night and sometimes during the daytime too. Averaging 60mpg, which is pretty good for a 7-seater 4WD bus that also does 0-60 in the mid-5 seconds range. Superb drive too.

What people seem to ignore is how pleasant it is driving in complete silence. The worst bit about driving a PHEV is running out of juice and the ICE kicking in.

We’ll probably be getting a second smaller car soon, and that one will be pure EV. I hate all the ugly weird-looking cars like the Prius, Leaf, and i3. Why do manufacturers have to forget all they know about car design just because it’s an electric vehicle?

It’s looking like the first genuine small EV that will look like a sensible car is going to be the e-Golf, and that’s likely to be top of the list.

[Woodland Hills]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I don't really care that much if it breaks once in a while. I'm not really car dependent so it doesn't matter that much to me. Anyway I've owned BMW's since the 1970's, and all of them have been utterly bulletproof except the first 2002 (but it was fun to work on) and the last second generation X5 (total POS even worse than my last car, a Range Rover, and less fun to drive).



I'm sure the BMW i5 will be fine, and anyway if I buy one it will be under warranty.


Its function as a TOY is as important as anything else, so PLEASE no Prius or Leaf or other humorless ugly Japanese device. The i5 is just so cool!!

Has the i5 been released? I thought the i3 was their only pure ev?

[Kenomac]

Uber.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Woodland Hills

Has the i5 been released? I thought the i3 was their only pure ev?

Typo -- of course, i3

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Uber.

Yes, Uber is brilliant, and in most places, eliminates the need to have one's own car. In Tallinn, for example, it costs like €4 to drive from the airport to the center on Uber, and you could drive around the city continuously all day and not spend €20.



Just not here, because Uber is not always available!


Even better than Uber, in these parts it's possible to buy an UNLIMITED TAXI CARD, for something like €480 a month -- absolutely unlimited taxi rides in the metro area. How cool is that? But at peak times, there are no taxis, and I'm finished with being late to business meetings as a result of this problem -- I can't afford it.




P.S. -- I might add to this, because I am involved in the city planning of one Fenno-Scandic capital city, that plans are already being made for the day when there will be no more private cars. By 2025, it is expected that private cars will be banned from the centers of cities, and that individual transport will be done exclusively by self driving cars operated by Uber and similar. I am quite sure that we will live to see this day, and it will be a better day than the one we live in.

[robwilk37]

bought a first gen volt. costs me $1 per night to recharge from a 110 socket while i sleep. didnt go to a gas station for 7 months. love it, fun to drive and well thought-out.

economics- bought it used just off the lease for $12kusd (some poor bastard ate $30k in depreciation in two years! and also hot-boxed the majority of the interior "new car" carcinogens, thanks for that) the car is pristine. still cant figure why they dont hold their value. wish id bought one a couple years ago...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by robwilk37

bought a first gen volt. costs me $1 per night to recharge from a 110 socket while i sleep. didnt go to a gas station for 7 months. love it, fun to drive and well thought-out.

economics- bought it used just off the lease for $12kusd (some poor bastard ate $30k in depreciation in two years! and also hot-boxed the majority of the interior "new car" carcinogens, thanks for that) the car is pristine. still cant figure why they dont hold their value. wish id bought one a couple years ago...

Very cool personal testimony!

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

P.S. -- I might add to this, because I am involved in the city planning of one Fenno-Scandic capital city, that plans are already being made for the day when there will be no more private cars. By 2025, it is expected that private cars will be banned from the centers of cities, and that individual transport will be done exclusively by self driving cars operated by Uber and similar. I am quite sure that we will live to see this day, and it will be a better day than the one we live in.

I certainly hope so. Self-driving cars can't get here fast enough.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

What people seem to ignore is how pleasant it is driving in complete silence. The worst bit about driving a PHEV is running out of juice and the ICE kicking in.

We’ll probably be getting a second smaller car soon, and that one will be pure EV. I hate all the ugly weird-looking cars like the Prius, Leaf, and i3. Why do manufacturers have to forget all they know about car design just because it’s an electric vehicle?

I never understand the "silence" comments. I've had big diesel pickups slip up behind me in parking lots without hearing them. Modern cars are already very quiet (assuming the exhaust isn't purposely changed to make more noise). Out on the freeway, the vast majority of noise is wind and tire noise...can't hear the engine on my 10yr old F250 unless I punch it but even then it's only for a few seconds.

The ICE kicking on with the Plug-In-Hybrid is the great thing...you don't have to give up use but still get most of your miles on electric. Obviously, this assumes you don't have a 100mile daily commute and buy a 20 mile range PIH.

As far as styling...you have 100yrs of styling based on ICE needs. The most obvious is the radiator defining the front of most vehicles. It looks weird because you are used to seeing features like dual exhaust that are serving the ICE but are no longer needed.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

I certainly hope so. Self-driving cars can't get here fast enough.

Small derail here: I think that too much hope is being pinned on self-driving cars, and not enough on simply good, people-first urban design, with a public transport system to match. Many downtown trips in personal vehicles are (or should be) unnecessary, if there's better alternatives like perimeter parking and decent public transit/bike routes/walkways in the city core. That's the solution to urban traffic congestion, not self-driving cars.

Human drivers are gonna hate self-driving cars. In order to be safe, the computer won't drive like Mario Andretti, it's gonna drive like your Uncle Henry - obeying speed limits, not running yellows, braking for falling leaves, actually stopping at stop signs...

Also, if you look at situations where automated driverless vehicles are the biggest success - example: a container port - the success comes from intercommunication, a sensored environment and centralized control. It's far easier for a self driving car to receive and process a signal "Light at upcoming intersection will be red in 20 sec" than it is to try to find any traffic light ahead, notice it's green, and try to guess when it will go red. Autonomous "smart" cars alone, on conventional streets, is just a kludge.

They also have the small problem of occasionally running over pedestrians, but what doesn't have bugs, right?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Also, if you look at situations where automated driverless vehicles are the biggest success - example: a container port - the success comes from intercommunication, a sensored environment and centralized control. It's far easier for a self driving car to receive and process a signal "Light at upcoming intersection will be red in 20 sec" than it is to try to find any traffic light ahead, notice it's green, and try to guess when it will go red. Autonomous "smart" cars alone, on conventional streets, is just a kludge.

The sensors are here.

5yr ago I helped set up a live on road test bed (on actual city roads) doing exactly what you say "light at upcoming intersection will be red in 20 sec".

The state where I do most of my work is installing the system as standard when they modernize a signal. It will take some years to do the whole state but it's being installed now.

That said... full blown completely autonomous is likely at least a decade if not two decades away...but various features of autonomous are already being implemented...adaptive cruise control, lane departure, etc...are all autonomous features that are gaining wide scale adoption on production cars.

[jmorrison146]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The local grid I'm on is carbon free -- exclusively biomass, hydro and nuclear.



The whole country will be carbon neutral in 2035.


No fossil fuels were harmed in the production of this power!

How much high-quality steel is used in the power plants? Nothing is ever 100% carbon neutral.

[Woodland Hills]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

I certainly hope so. Self-driving cars can't get here fast enough.

If we can’t develop self driving trains, then what chance of developing self driving cars and trucks? It’s a much simpler problem to solve, but we still haven’t been able to pull it off. Think about it: no lanes to change, no side streets or cross streets, all cross traffic is blocked when the train is near, no merging vehicles, no steering!!, just go and stop. Yet we still can’t make self driving trains. Until we see autonomous trains, autonomous cars are just a pipe dream........ At least elevators are self driving!

[Woodland Hills]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I never understand the "silence" comments. I've had big diesel pickups slip up behind me in parking lots without hearing them. Modern cars are already very quiet (assuming the exhaust isn't purposely changed to make more noise). Out on the freeway, the vast majority of noise is wind and tire noise...can't hear the engine on my 10yr old F250 unless I punch it but even then it's only for a few seconds.

The ICE kicking on with the Plug-In-Hybrid is the great thing...you don't have to give up use but still get most of your miles on electric. Obviously, this assumes you don't have a 100mile daily commute and buy a 20 mile range PIH.

As far as styling...you have 100yrs of styling based on ICE needs. The most obvious is the radiator defining the front of most vehicles. It looks weird because you are used to seeing features like dual exhaust that are serving the ICE but are no longer needed.

It’s not the silence as much as the smoothness that appeals about EVs. No vibration from the motor ever and no jerky-jerky transmission either. Add that to 100% of the torque being available at zero rpm to make any econobox feel like a sportscar. Did I mention No Transmission?