Dealing with BSers

[bbhflts]

Guys, thanks for all the extremely valuable advice and taking the time to help a novice buyer like myself.

I followed most of the advice to a T, but also figured that there is more to learn here, so engaged a couple of experience mates (an ABS surveyor and a ships head engineer) and decided to survey the boat ourselves so see exactly how much BS this guy and his mates were full of. Please keep in mind that I was informed by these guys that this boat was the "absolute steal of the century"!!!!
Also, at least this way I would learn and save money by only paying a surveyor when I'm damn sure about the boat.

I followed some of the other advice in finding a survey template and downloaded a few. Then compiled them into one huge checklist.

The downloads and templates from Sailingmates Sailboat maintenance was a great help.

My other prep included reading Nigel Calders Boatowners Mechanical and Electrical Manual and Steve Dashews Offshore Cruising Encylopedia both from cover to cover.

In the following, I'll post the results of my preliminary survey (as much for clarity as for you to have a laugh at the extent of what I found and how much BS this guy was full of.

I didn't spend to much time getting exact quotes for all the required work, but more so estimations. Then I subtracted this from the asking price which happened to be the market price for a "good" condition model.

I took the market rate for a boat of this model in "good" condition. it was $50, 000 USD. I didn't subtract expected surprises or my time cost. The result was that this boat is worth about $12000 USD.

When I spoke to the owner about the findings, he didn't even try to act surprised in a believable way, just a few "or really, I didn't think it was that bad".

I offered him $12K and guess what, he offered to get it all fixed up and then for the same original asking price. I queried him how he could do it cheaper than I could get it done assuming that it's all done professionally to international standards and there didn't seem to be an answer for this.

Suffice to say that I walked away, very happy and with a lot more knowledge. I highly recommend self surveying practice to anyone.

They are now trying to superficially cover up all the issues so some other poor sucker can buy a financial black hole for a lot of money.

Enjoy the following and thanks again for your advice!!!!!

[bbhflts]

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...cture2819.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...cture2820.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...cture2821.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...cture2822.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...cture2823.html

[cantxsailor]

I would like to point out those who come to me for "expert" advice and then go do what ever it was they were going to do, the way they were going to do it before they asked me for advice.

I am very good at what I do but I couldn't explain half of what I "do" to anyone and not sound like I'm full of it. It's very hard to explain how I can "see" how something isn't working right and be able to fix it. I am NOT a good teacher.
Maybe thats why I can't understand electronics. I can't "see" how they work.

To get myself in really deep here the worst people I have to deal with are regularly, engineers.

Not, of course, the ones HERE but those "other" ones. The ones who have miles of book knowledge and degrees but not so much recent, relevant, real world, hands on, dirt under your nails stuff. I have dealt with so many of those guys it makes me very leary of almost anyone using the term "I'm an engineer".

In many cases engineers(only the ones I have dealt with) are so sure of their rightness that they sometimes forget there MAY be more than one answer to any given question. I have been told on many occasions something MUST be done a certain way for the correct outcome to occur, quite often after I've already finished the job safely, successfully, more easily and often cheaper.

I'm a fixer of my own "stuff". I'm too broke most of the time to do it the "correct" way as proscribed by "experts" with much more education than me and perhaps a degree or 2 as well.

If I waited around to do it their "right way" I'd have sunk(literally and figuritivly) years ago.

Just because someone is an engineer doesn't make them right or an expert in anything. Just because something is in an official book doesn't make it the only answer.

Open your eyes, use you head, read a book and remember physics is mostly just theory and most experts got to be experts because most people are to lazy to figure "stuff" out for themselves.................m

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by bbhflts

I didn't spend to much time getting exact quotes for all the required work, but more so estimations. Then I subtracted this from the asking price which happened to be the market price for a "good" condition model.

I took the market rate for a boat of this model in "good" condition. it was $50, 000 USD. I didn't subtract expected surprises or my time cost. The result was that this boat is worth about $12000 USD.

Good on ya!

Staring at the numbers is an eye opener ain't it. Especially the Total

The good thing about someone else's problems is that you don't have to buy into them

[captmick39]

Originally Posted by bbhflts

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...cture2819.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...cture2820.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...cture2821.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...cture2822.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...cture2823.html

BBH, the end of this thread is EVEN better than beginning or middle.
Now....
When Your "BS'ing Buddy" is sitting at the BAR with all his lapdog buds who think gravity revolves around his words and they are the fortunate "planets" in his cosmos....:kissy:
I'd stroll right up,
drop a copy of that survey on the bar right next to his beer and proudly announce:
"You OWE me $500.(or whatever bill for survey would have been, have the pd. receipt for same right on top, from Your "buddies") DUMBAZZ. That paperwork proves You're so full of crap Your eyes are brown(or should be)."
Then turn, walk away and leave with all the little orbiting satellite's mouth's agape , probably HIS included.

You will gain MORE respect this way than You could ever imagine. BS'ers make a science out of embarassing the newbie's & less experienced (PUBLICLY). What (sometimes) jerks them back to reality(or not) is the official Public NOTICE that they're FULL 'O Crap. If Nothing else, the bar grows quiet, the "planets" distance themselves from that gravitational pull as the report is read...and every one of them walks from the bar knowing YOU and the SURVEYOR...who nailed it all, were right. The Guilt factor on Your WASTED survey $$ will remain hanging in the air, so thick it could be cut with a knife, once that last page is read...like a fog of reality...painful, financial reality.

Don't look back, don't expect financial compensation and most importantly, don't Waste this wonderful (albeit personally EXPENSIVE...so he's left to think) opportunity to "CALL BS" on him.


& in case any ever wondered...eyes are hazel, usually keep to myself on the yards, don't socialize there or at the marinas at all unless approached 1st, & don't EVER give advice unless it's solicited and they KNOW I know the answer; if they're wrong & I actually don't..."ugh, sorry guy/gal, can't help You, never done that before." (didn't hurt at all...back to work)

& Cantx...Awesome Post!

[Jolly Roger]

This boating game sounds almost as full of it as fishing or golf.

[captmick39]

Originally Posted by Jolly Roger

This boating game sounds almost as full of it as fishing or golf.

WORSE...speaking for fishing;
hitting little white balls around a cow pasture in tacky pants never appealed;

envision:
"It was 'THIS BIG'" as the hands slowly spread farther & farther apart

[mesquaukee]

Originally Posted by cantxsailor

To get myself in really deep here the worst people I have to deal with are regularly, engineers.

Not, of course, the ones HERE but those "other" ones. The ones who have miles of book knowledge and degrees but not so much recent, relevant, real world, hands on, dirt under your nails stuff. I have dealt with so many of those guys it makes me very leary of almost anyone using the term "I'm an engineer".

In many cases engineers(only the ones I have dealt with) are so sure of their rightness that they sometimes forget there MAY be more than one answer to any given question. I have been told on many occasions something MUST be done a certain way for the correct outcome to occur, quite often after I've already finished the job safely, successfully, more easily and often cheaper.

I'm a fixer of my own "stuff". I'm too broke most of the time to do it the "correct" way as proscribed by "experts" with much more education than me and perhaps a degree or 2 as well.

Just because someone is an engineer doesn't make them right or an expert in anything. Just because something is in an official book doesn't make it the only answer.

Open your eyes, use you head, read a book and remember physics is mostly just theory and most experts got to be experts because most people are to lazy to figure "stuff" out for themselves.................m

Absolutely right.
The old school engineers got dirty. The new ones regurgitate books and haven’t a clue what end of a screwdriver to hang onto!

[David M]

Geez...do any engineers want to defend themselves?

[mesquaukee]

Originally Posted by David M

Geez...do any engineers want to defend themselves?

I am an old school engineer. You should see my fingernails.

It is the same with any profession or trade. We all have our complaints.

[bbhflts]

David M. There's no need to defend the engineers.

A BS engineer with no experience will just spout theory and opinion, so the same BS detection recommnedations earlier in the thread hold true. A seasoned or experienced engineer will or should be able to explain the foundations of his/her recommendation, not via pure theory, but experience and rationale.

I've got three degrees, and 20 years of experience. Each degree has taught me is:
a) the foundation concepts, how to understand them, how to link them and apply logic between them and the issue at hand.
b) to ask "why" or question everything and everyone all the time, to every answer and counter answer until all possibilities are exhausted.

Anyone with a degree should know that the degree means Jack Sh.t without experience, hence the negligible pay for new grads.

I treat such inexperienced engineers that start spouting as they actually are....... insecure for full of BS.

I also find that BS is a good tool for judging character. A wise man will shut his mouth until he has established the level of knowledge of his counterpart and certainly not spout supposed facts unless he/she has their facts firmly backed up. The inexperienced or insecure or BS'er will just start spouting.

Cheers.

Ben.

[captmick39]

Originally Posted by mesquaukee

Absolutely right.
The old school engineers got dirty. The new ones regurgitate books and haven’t a clue what end of a screwdriver to hang onto!

OUCH!
& thought I Was "harsh";

Mesquaukee...have Your name remembered
(now filed under "Takes no F'ing Prisoners")

-Mick

[Pblais]

Technical people often are accused of talking down to those less educated. It happens and life is not fair. There is another side.

Some stuff really is rocket science. It's not my problem if you can't do the math. Not everything can be explained at a 3rd grade level so you can perform brain surgery on your cousin. Being able to divide by 2 is not always enough.

It is possible to explain technology better than it sometimes is but it's not as easy as throwing up your arms, pleading stupid, and blaming someone else. You can get dirty fingernails from screwing up all the time too.

My personal favorite: Even a blind pig can find an acorn once in a while. So for everyone that tried to do something they were told they couldn't and did it any way - being lucky still counts! Works for me anytime it happens.

Not everyone that can do it can teach it. We teach a lot here at CF from folks that can do it to those that can't. Anyone with a problem with that idea is entitled to a full refund on the price of admission.

If you learn anything useful here it was perhaps a mistake but certainly intended. We have every kind of person here you can imagine here and some that used to be here and won't be allowed back.

You need to do the sorting out on your own. Your real life experience still matters and if you know you are happy you just might be.

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by Pblais

Technical people often are accused of talking down to those less educated. It happens and life is not fair. There is another side.

Some stuff really is rocket science. It's not my problem if you can't do the math. Not everything can be explained at a 3rd grade level so you can perform brain surgery on your cousin. Being able to divide by 2 is not always enough.

It is possible to explain technology better than it sometimes is but it's not as easy as throwing up your arms, pleading stupid, and blaming someone else. You can get dirty fingernails from screwing up all the time too.

My personal favorite: Even a blind pig can find an acorn once in a while. So for everyone that tried to do something they were told they couldn't and did it any way - being lucky still counts! Works for me anytime it happens.

Not everyone that can do it can teach it. We teach a lot here at CF from folks that can do it to those that can't. Anyone with a problem with that idea is entitled to a full refund on the price of admission.

If you learn anything useful here it was perhaps a mistake but certainly intended. We have every kind of person here you can imagine here and some that used to be here and won't be allowed back.

You need to do the sorting out on your own. Your real life experience still matters and if you know you are happy you just might be.

With all due respect Paul,and I might be reading it wrong, but there seems to be a lot of patronizing anger in your post.

[Chief Engineer]

Years ago, after I left Tugboats...I ran into an female friend at the mall....she ran up to me....gave me a BIG hug....sniffed and said "You've changed jobs, haven't you?"
Yeah....but I still have the chronic "fingernails"

BSers are one thing.......The people who read an article/book are another.

One of the most fun things I do in my line of work is spending a couple hours with a customer and his new or "new" old boat. I get them to do hands on stuff so they aren't afraid of their engine/system......by doing this I have gotten more than a few running via cellphone....I should get a commision on the number of Casey/Calder books I've sold.

What really makes me chuckle is encountering the "worlds greatest expert" at our marina.......the guy is contantly fiddlefarting with his boat, has so many gizmos on it and never goes anywhere.