Apparently I am losing my people skills.

[Chotu]

thank you very much for all the advice.

this stuff is so scary.

I won’t be able to keep the boat if he’s not on the level.

But luckily, misappropriation of funds is a felony so I’m sure he’s not doing that.

just the way he is acting so mysterious about what we have bought and where my money is has me quite nervous now after all of that. I guess that's the broken trust.

I have been up all night worrying about this. And I have back to back 12-14 hour days right now. I'm sick to my stomach. All of this is contrary to my cardiologist's advive.

I'm not in the boat. I’m near the boat. I specifically went through a lot of effort to not be on the boat while it was getting worked on so it was easier.

I think almost every post above has a good point in it. And definitely they all have some good advice about how to proceed. One of the main problems is I was smack in the middle of everything when he knocked on the door and I was already stressed to the maximum and arguing with people and all sorts of things were going on so he probably observed that the body language and thought it was made for him or something. He just interrupted me in the middle of a lot of interactions with other people not all of them pleasant.

Of course I haven’t said any of this stuff to him because I’m kind of just getting it off my chest here. I have to portray something completely different to him.

I guess I will apologize and give over the cash that he was looking for at that moment. Try to explain that I was in the middle of several different confrontational things with lots of people at the same time and maybe with giving off some confrontational energy due to that.

it’s weird because I didn’t feel confrontational really with him. I just was thinking it was more simple to go with the parts balance and then refresh the parts balance just like we do with the labor. but maybe he didn’t see it that way and thought I was being a jerk about it or something

The thing about the furler was that at that point I was under the impression still that he had already ordered everything for the boat so we were ready to go. So he needed extra for the furler because the parts money was depleted. Only very recently today and the other day that I discover it was not fully used yet.

or rather, that we didn’t have all the stuff we need. That’s what I discovered. I was asking about one of the components and if he could bring the components to the boat so that I could start the part that I am going to be working on. And he was saying that we don’t have the components.

I don’t know. This just is awful in general.

I will take all the advice here and go ahead and try to offer an Olive branch apology.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by GordMay

What one person says (intends), and another hears (understands), can be vastly different things.

He sees you on his project boat, and expects the project to be your focus.
You see yourself as being in your home office, and know that your business is (was) your current focus.
Your distraction [1], and alternative suggestion (take the cost from the existing deposit, may have been misconstrued as: disinterest (or other)[1], and argument[2].

Asking for an accounting can be received as mistrust. Generally people don’t appreciate pejorative questions, and dislike being mistrusted.
Your nervousness, due to the last rigger, may be showing through, convincing him that you don’t trust him.

Remember: "The secret of success is sincerity. Once you can fake that you've got it made."
~ anonymous (with many claimants)



Your clear rules and spreadsheet didn’t include the furler, so you added it’s cost to the (parts deposit) amount.
Now (& likewise), your spreadsheet doesn’t include the antennae, so he wants to add it to the deposit. Seems consistent, to me.


Indeed.

This is a very good post as well.

I think there had to also be some misunderstanding of intent.

There were actually two main reasons I was looking for some accounting.

1) so I know where I stand financially. And I don’t mean that as mistrust. I mean that as how close am I to going over budget?
2) to gain some insight into the timing of some of these parts and what we have ordered versus what we have not ordered

I did communicate to him that I would be extremely busy and off the project for three days, then come Saturday I would be 100% on the project for the rest of the month. Maybe he thought my ability to juggle my other responsibilities and both at the same time were greater than they actually are.

I know for sure it must be a little bit frustrating to work with me because I am an idea guy. Lol there’s a good amount of "can we do this?" and then him shooting me down. And of course when he does I don’t make any argument because he’s the expert.

I guess tomorrow morning hopefully I will see him before my work starts and be able to offer the olive branch.

[smj]

My take may be a little different than others but it comes from my experience of dealing with contractors for a living.
If I’m getting this right it’s a time and materials job. Always good to have both parties appreciate and respect each other. The contractor should appreciate and respect you for your outlay of funds to cover the initial expenses, now the contractor needs to produce receipts and a breakdown of where the money has gone so you can appreciate and respect the job he’s doing. If he doesn’t want to produce an accounting and or receipts it’s a big red flag to me.
Take him out to dinner and have a few beers with him. Explain your need to know where the job is financially. If he can’t understand your concerns he isn’t worth dealing with.

[bdgWesternMass]

Originally Posted by Chotu

OK.
I really don’t know where I went wrong.

Any ideas?

I'm only posting this becuase you asked


I have been in the similar situations as a tradesperson that is over worked. He just needed $300 and your project would progress. You were busy on something and he was busy trying to meet your deadline. If you gave him the money your project would move forward. You trusted him with $21,000 and now suddenly $300 is too much. Worse you needed an explanation now while too busy to focus and he is no longer making progress but explaining why he needs $300. He is 3 other irons in the fire any of which would gladly give him $3,000 if he said he needed now for their job.

There was plenty of time later when you both were thinking clearly to figure out if he really needed the $300.

I'm pretty sure this is a pattern you find yourself in. Tradespeople of all stripes know this pattern. If they are talented tradespeople they find the people that are always glad to give them whatever they need for the project.

[sailorboy1]

I notice a pattern. Bet I am not only one.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I notice a pattern. Bet I am not only one.

You kind of are. But what’s the pattern you notice?

[bdgWesternMass]

Originally Posted by Chotu

You kind of are. But what’s the pattern you notice?

That you put yourself in yourself and your tradespeople in high stress low reward situations.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by bdgWesternMass

I'm only posting this becuase you asked


I have been in the similar situations as a tradesperson that is over worked. He just needed $300 and your project would progress. You were busy on something and he was busy trying to meet your deadline. If you gave him the money your project would move forward. You trusted him with $21,000 and now suddenly $300 is too much. Worse you needed an explanation now while too busy to focus and he is no longer making progress but explaining why he needs $300. He is 3 other irons in the fire any of which would gladly give him $3,000 if he said he needed now for their job.

There was plenty of time later when you both were thinking clearly to figure out if he really needed the $300.

I'm pretty sure this is a pattern you find yourself in. Tradespeople of all stripes know this pattern. If they are talented tradespeople they find the people that are always glad to give them whatever they need for the project.

Sounds about right. Sounds pretty accurate. That’s what I would call a misunderstanding. And especially given that I have been the trades person. Just with a different type of trade but the same thing I had always provided detailed and perfect accounting for any customer and giving really good customer service for everybody. They were no unhappy customers. In that role I was a person who under promised and over delivered. Always. So I’m not used to the opposite side happening. There’s a lot of overpromising and under delivering that goes on these days. I must be getting old.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by bdgWesternMass

That you put yourself in your tradespeople in high stress low reward situations.

I get your pattern. I was asking Sailor boy about the pattern.

But if I had it my way, I would not have anyone working on the boat and I never will again. This is the last bit.

Just like auto mechanics. It’s the same thing.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by smj

My take may be a little different than others but it comes from my experience of dealing with contractors for a living.
If I’m getting this right it’s a time and materials job. Always good to have both parties appreciate and respect each other. The contractor should appreciate and respect you for your outlay of funds to cover the initial expenses, now the contractor needs to produce receipts and a breakdown of where the money has gone so you can appreciate and respect the job he’s doing. If he doesn’t want to produce an accounting and or receipts it’s a big red flag to me.
Take him out to dinner and have a few beers with him. Explain your need to know where the job is financially. If he can’t understand your concerns he isn’t worth dealing with.

See, this is how I learn business. These are my expectations.

But in general I think I can let him know in a more gentle way.

Basically I just need to know I’m not running into a financial wall tomorrow with no notification. That’s why I need the accounting of what’s happening on the materials budget.

[bdgWesternMass]

Thinking about it more. This is pure speculation on my part but you seem genuinely interested in feedback.

Creating things with people is a collaborative process. To create really great things requires a certain trust and commitment to the shared goal. I don't mean touchy feely respecting space type trust. I mean trust that when I need tell you something you believe it and will do everything you can to help. Considering the time value of money the value the request wasn't out of line. If you got caught up I the moment which happens and you saw him get angry you should have immediately apologized said we can catch up later and offered the awesome the rigger the $300. He was stressed and needed support and commitment from you. Instead he found more work and stress that is part of the job technically doesn't help the physical work from happening.

You want the type of billing support and customer service of Gunboat but are really only paying for the labor part of Gunboat.

I'm only speaking from my experience as both a trades person and an employer.

[smj]

Originally Posted by bdgWesternMass

Thinking about it more. This is pure speculation on my part but you seem genuinely interested in feedback.

Creating things with people is a collaborative process. To create really great things requires a certain trust and commitment to the shared goal. I don't mean touchy feely respecting space type trust. I mean trust that when I need tell you something you believe it and will do everything you can to help. Considering the time value of money the value the request wasn't out of line. If you got caught up I the moment which happens and you saw him get angry you should have immediately apologized said we can catch up later and offered the awesome the rigger the $300. He was stressed and needed support and commitment from you. Instead he found more work and stress that is part of the job technically doesn't help the physical work from happening.

You want the type of billing support and customer service of Gunboat but are really only paying for the labor part of Gunboat.

I'm only speaking from my experience as both a trades person and an employer.

Trust is earned. Chotu has shown the contractor that he’s trustworthy with the initial outlay of money. Now its the contractors time to show he’s trustworthy with an accounting of what he’s done with the initial outlay of money. Or should we just pass money to all contractors without an accounting of where it goes?

[MicHughV]

You catch a lot more flies with honey y'know.

It takes little effort to swallow your pride and go talk with the guy, say you sorry about this past event and get the project back on track. Offer him a beer while you are at it to seal the deal.

Most every project on the planet experiences change orders due to unknown events, lack of materials, etc, showing up.

Allow yourself a 10% contingency number to cover these costs.

At the end of the day, this too will pass as a non-event in your life. The end goal being to get your rig up now without further delay. A happy rigger is a lot easier to work with than a disgruntled rigger. Once the rig is up, you'll forget all about the event.

[TrentePieds]

Chotu:

Just where is the 15 grand you say remains? What is the number of the account in the banking establishment where it was deposited? Don't answer that - it's just my advice to you that there'd damn well better be one! Who has signing authority on that account? It had damn well better be YOU and YOU ONLY!!!.

If "your rigger" is worth his salt as a rigger, he will have enuff financial strength to buy, and pay for from his OWN funds, what is required to do the job he's contracted to do. When the stuff he bought has been installed on your boat and the installation has been approved by you - but not before - the rigger should give you a formal invoice for that work. If the labour charge showing on the invoice is reasonable, you pay it BY CHEQUE! Of which you keep a photocopy. And you staple that photocopy to the invoice it relates to. And you put those documents in your files. And you keep those files in a safe place till the boat has been finished and launched!

If you work on any other basis, you are gonna get screwed!

So wake up to the fact that you are not only building a boat. YOU ARE RUNNING A BOAT YARD!! That the only customer your boat yard has is you, yourself, doesn't alter that. You still have to run it like a boat yard. Emotion has no place in running a business! For your own sake, and for the sake of every single person who gets involved in it in any way whatsoever.

All the best

TrentePieds

[Knotical]

Originally Posted by smj

Trust is earned. Chotu has shown the contractor that he’s trustworthy with the initial outlay of money. Now its the contractors time to show he’s trustworthy with an accounting of what he’s done with the initial outlay of money. Or should we just pass money to all contractors without an accounting of where it goes?

I disagree with this, he’s not some law or accounting firm where they will send you expense sheet every few days; there are hundreds of things that he needs to get to put up a rig, some may be ordered waiting to be delivered, some may need to be ordered when necessary, if he’s got as good a name as Chotu suggested in previous threads he must be doing something right.

In my experience with riggers they will give a ballpark figure for a job rather than an exact figure as they just don’t know what else that job may entail - material costs change over time and even labor hours may change depending on certain modifications that need to be made.

This rigger is already hired by Chotu, and if he’s as good as it seems (hope he got prior references) I suggest to give him his space and the necessary funds and let him do his job, a big project like this may be causing him some stress and pesky behavior on Chotu’s part will only make matters worse.

Finally, Chotu, as you asked in your OP I would say to look inside, you may have the right reasoning to lash out at him but the approach was wrong, and reading your previous threads this is not the first time you have had a problem with someone, your wish to never need help from someone in the future also leads me to think that you may not be that good of a people person you think you are.