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Old 12-09-2017, 23:39   #31
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Re: Americas's Cup settles Mono vs Cat once and for all?

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Flying Scot, F1, Mercedes......

David, is that you ?
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Old 12-09-2017, 23:49   #32
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Re: Americas's Cup settles Mono vs Cat once and for all?

BTW, don't look up sailboat in "The Urban Dictionary" :[/QUOTE]

Oh no, I did exactly the opposite of what you said and looked it up. Learn something new every day. Could have done without that though. I regret it.

Am glad no-one is suggesting Humpty Dumpty's "sailboating" (Urban Dictionary definition) led to the fall? Why were the king's soldiers and men so quick on the job?

Nursery rhymes, sailing, and life will not be the same again.

Whoops thread drift.
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Old 13-09-2017, 00:04   #33
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Re: Americas's Cup settles Mono vs Cat once and for all?

I think we will certainly see some cruising boats that can foil as a result of the foiling mono developments for the 2019 Volvo and the AC. In 5 to 10 years?

I'd do anything to have the option of putting the foils down for part of the day, and have the option and excitement of covering some ground at 20 knots instead of 6 knots when wanted. Reduce sail and lift the foils at night or when the old folk (like me) get tired. (Well almost anything - see previous post)

I spoke to a smaller Auckland based aluminium boat build specialist company owner who had aspirations along these lines. A couple of years ago.

Hasn't Gunboat already done it with Cat's?

Foiling on all fours with a mono and a righting keel might have the potential to be a bit less sensitive, a bit more easily controllable?
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Old 13-09-2017, 00:41   #34
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Re: Americas's Cup settles Mono vs Cat once and for all?

I can't wait to add a few foils to our boat.
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Old 13-09-2017, 01:29   #35
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Re: Americas's Cup settles Mono vs Cat once and for all?

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You could be right about the timing it depends on the motivation to produce it, when they started work on the idea and how much development is required to make it safe for sailors to use. I work in design (nothing to do with boats) and if someone approached me with the task to develop this I think we would have a 1st run production design in the water in that time because the hard work has been already done by the race teams.
Well if it's safe and with customers showing great interest then I guess it could be out in your time frame, perhaps even less.
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Old 13-09-2017, 01:35   #36
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Re: Americas's Cup settles Mono vs Cat once and for all?

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So glad you're here to help us, since Merriam-Webster and all the others have got things so wrong.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sailboat

Yep, Catamarans, Trimarans, Hobie Cats, Pacific Voyaging Proas, none of them are "sailboats". Absolutely.
Well according to their definition a sailing raft would be a sailboat because it uses a sail for propulsion. it isn't. It's a sailing raft, the clue is in the name. A vessel that uses a sail for propulsion doesn't automatically become a sailboat.

As I've said, not all sailing vessels are sailboats, some are catamarans, others are trimarans and some even sailing rafts. What they all have in common thou, is that they are sailing vessels, of various kinds.

It used to be only sailing yachts, because yachts have traditionally been sailboats, and as you know, that means monohull. If they are not we're talking about catamarans or trimarans or rafts, different kinds of sailing vessels. Which is why the term sailing vessel is mostly used today, unless perhaps in Europe, where sailing yacht is still in full swing, regardless of what kind of sailing vessel it is.

It's like motor vehicles, not all motor vehicles are cars, some are buses, others are trucks and motorcycles etc. What they all have in common is that they use engines for propulsion. Hence the term: motor vehicle. But they are not all the same, regardless of what any dictionary says.

But I'm digressing now.
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Old 13-09-2017, 04:58   #37
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Re: Americas's Cup settles Mono vs Cat once and for all?

Looks like Humpty Dumpty has his own meaning of the words "vessel" and "raft" as well.

Raft:
a flat buoyant structure of timber or other materials fastened together, used as a boat or floating platform.
small, inflatable rubber or plastic boat, especially one for use in emergencies.

I wonder whether English is his first language?
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Old 13-09-2017, 05:20   #38
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Re: Americas's Cup settles Mono vs Cat once and for all?

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Looks like Humpty Dumpty has his own meaning of the words "vessel" and "raft" as well.

Raft:
a flat buoyant structure of timber or other materials fastened together, used as a boat or floating platform.
small, inflatable rubber or plastic boat, especially one for use in emergencies.

I wonder whether English is his first language?
Using a raft as a boat doesn't mean it's a boat. Or that it's a sailboat when you attach a sail. It's a raft fitted with a sail, hence: sailing raft.

Sailing vessel is any vessel that uses a sail for propulsion. Been over that one too. There are many different kinds of sailing vessels, just like there are many different kinds of motor vehicles.

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Old 13-09-2017, 05:43   #39
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Re: Americas's Cup settles Mono vs Cat once and for all?

Well... not that I want to put any gasoline in this fire (nonsense fire in my opinion, as a few members here seem to just be gratuitously looking for confrontation)... if I had a Catamaran I wouldn't say I have a sailboat. I'd say I have a Catamaran (or trimaran). If I had a raft with a sail... well... I'd keep my mouth shut, but if questioned I'd say "I have a raft... but id does have a sail on it"

I do agree that (my very own) definition of sailing boat is also very "old school perhaps" ?! Not that it is negative to other sailing vessels! (On the contrary, I also like trimarans), but to me a sailboat is just that. All other sailing vessels have their own name to me (and lets face it... they do have one).

But the post stranded into high-tech Vs non-high-tech in racing... and there I also think there is room for both. Unfortunately we do not see much of the latter.
But the Golden Globe 2018 will have zillions of followers (perhaps even more that the Vendee... and that means something. That "common people" like high-tech...but they like even more to be able to really connect with it. Something that today's high-tech races will not provide to the common mortal.

And from all those , to me, the top of the tops is the Jester Challenge? The most beautiful "race" ever! No prize money, almost no coverage, no fame. Anyone who enters it, enters only for the beauty of sailing, racing and sharing with other same minded people. Sailors, to me.
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Old 13-09-2017, 05:46   #40
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Re: Americas's Cup settles Mono vs Cat once and for all?

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I can't wait to add a few foils to our boat.
I'm going to have to add quite a few to get much benefit. Like maybe 100. But then there is water resistance to contend with. It may foil my plans...
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Old 13-09-2017, 06:00   #41
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Re: Americas's Cup settles Mono vs Cat once and for all?

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I'm going to have to add quite a few to get much benefit. Like maybe 100. But then there is water resistance to contend with. It may foil my plans...
She would end up looking like a porcupine by the time you were done.
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Old 13-09-2017, 06:13   #42
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Re: Americas's Cup settles Mono vs Cat once and for all?

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Well... not that I want to put any gasoline in this fire (nonsense fire in my opinion, as a few members here seem to just be gratuitously looking for confrontation)... if I had a Catamaran I wouldn't say I have a sailboat. I'd say I have a Catamaran (or trimaran). If I had a raft with a sail... well... I'd keep my mouth shut, but if questioned I'd say "I have a raft... but id does have a sail on it"

I do agree that (my very own) definition of sailing boat is also very "old school perhaps" ?! Not that it is negative to other sailing vessels! (On the contrary, I also like trimarans), but to me a sailboat is just that. All other sailing vessels have their own name to me (and lets face it... they do have one).

But the post stranded into high-tech Vs non-high-tech in racing... and there I also think there is room for both. Unfortunately we do not see much of the latter.
But the Golden Globe 2018 will have zillions of followers (perhaps even more that the Vendee... and that means something. That "common people" like high-tech...but they like even more to be able to really connect with it. Something that today's high-tech races will not provide to the common mortal.

And from all those , to me, the top of the tops is the Jester Challenge? The most beautiful "race" ever! No prize money, almost no coverage, no fame. Anyone who enters it, enters only for the beauty of sailing, racing and sharing with other same minded people. Sailors, to me.
In a way it's the purest form of racing, a bit like road racing, that's how it all got started.

Check out the Isle of man TT, amazing! Just amazing. Sure it's a bit amateurish in parts, so what? That's part of the charm, you can walk around and talk to the drivers etc, great atmosphere.
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Old 13-09-2017, 06:20   #43
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Re: Americas's Cup settles Mono vs Cat once and for all?

Here's my foil(ing) sailboat:



or at least the one normal people can afford
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Old 13-09-2017, 06:24   #44
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Re: Americas's Cup settles Mono vs Cat once and for all?

They lost me with the foiling catamarans when they called off a race because the water was "too rough". Maybe so but my 40 ft. heavy cruising boat would have sailed in that. I would like to see them racing a boat design that is both fast and can sail in any weather short of a tropical storm. That is what sailing races used to be. "optimal conditions" used to mean "enough wind". They didnt mean "flat enough water to foil".

A simple way to solve this problem would be to tell the various contestants that the race will happen whether there are waves or not. If their boat is too slow or unable to sail at all in the conditions that happen to occur then they lose that race. Shocking fact: There are waves on the ocean! Sometimes big ones!

I have cousins who have raced in the Bermuda race many times (and even won once). They go in just about any conditions, often conditions that would make a foiling cat stay home. Which is the faster boat?
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Old 13-09-2017, 06:27   #45
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Re: Americas's Cup settles Mono vs Cat once and for all?

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Originally Posted by Scotty Kiwi View Post
I think we will certainly see some cruising boats that can foil as a result of the foiling mono developments for the 2019 Volvo and the AC. In 5 to 10 years?

I'd do anything to have the option of putting the foils down for part of the day, and have the option and excitement of covering some ground at 20 knots instead of 6 knots when wanted. Reduce sail and lift the foils at night or when the old folk (like me) get tired. (Well almost anything - see previous post)

I spoke to a smaller Auckland based aluminium boat build specialist company owner who had aspirations along these lines. A couple of years ago.

Hasn't Gunboat already done it with Cat's?

Foiling on all fours with a mono and a righting keel might have the potential to be a bit less sensitive, a bit more easily controllable?
I guess that depends on what you call a "cruising boat" but I think it is unlikely to happen, ever. I realize that foiling technology will continue to get better and sails more efficient, etc. But most "cruising boats" must be rugged enough to endure offshore conditions where rescue for at least several days is unlikely and "cruisers" like to take along all the "stuff" to be self sufficient and make their lives comfortable, including lots of pretty heavy equipment and food and water and fuel, etc. So if you take a look at the amount of weight that a "cruising boat" weighs and carries onboard, it would be a whole different thing than making a hollowed out racing boat foil. So, I think the idea of putting your cruising sailboat on "fast forward" is likely to remain a "just out of reach" pipe dream, forever.
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