Worried About Affording Maintenance Costs

[brookssail]

Originally Posted by brettrae

My wife and I are deeply researching buying a catamaran, docking her in a nearby marina in the Chesapeake Bay, and learning to sail and maintain her while we keep our day jobs during the week. I initially thought that we could afford this, because the cost of the cats we're looking at are around $175k, which is less than the house we thought about purchasing before this crazy idea.

However, after crunching some numbers, I'm getting a little more nervous when I add in the estimated monthly maintenance costs (10% of the cost of the boat per year). My question is this: if we were to buy a good, well-surveyed boat, can we really expect to pay an average of $17,500 on maintenance costs every year (or $1,500 a month)? Or would it be okay to live on the boat while fixing things as we can afford them? We are complete newbies, so it might be okay to learn the ins and outs of the boat slowly...we aren't trying to leave the Bay as quickly as possible.

Thanks, as always!

Not sure of the “10% rule” but if your adding in pier cost i beleive youll be over the $17000 goal. Owning a boat, sailing is a great life style but get your finances in order and then go play. If ya have any reservations dont do it.

[john61ct]

No, to the extent the percentage number / range, and (%of what) could **ever** be nailed down

it refers to maintenance costs, preventative, upkeep, break &fix, replacing worn out or outmoded gear, adding what is now considered essential etc.

Not slip / mooring / storage, not fuel.

Yes still a "how long is a piece of string" question, needs more people publishing actual expense logs to hone in on an objective average ballpark.

But important to keep what needs measuring clear.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Wildly optimistic.

Realism is you **might** get half back, after a year, putting in a fair bit of effort and spending a fair bit getting / keeping her in good shape.

Excuse me? What brand of cat, available used for $175k, is going to lose 50% of its value within one year? You can’t assume it’s trashed to begin with.

[john61ct]

All depends.

Can often take more than a year to sell these days, even being realistic on price.

My main point is to not **count on** anything when running "can I afford?" numbers.

Then whatever you **do** end up recovering off the back end is gravy, a nice surprise.

At least default to very conservative numbers, be pessimistic wrt that particular variable.

No one can predict the future, markets crash quickly.

[drcat]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

To give an idea I had a failure that led to needing a new engine. The quote from the USA was 12 - 15k for the engine plus 1500 delivery and at least 5k for fitting. As a DIY job fitting a Chinese engine total cost I did it for about 4k total. The Chinese engine is better quality than the US one (which in fact is mostly built in China, assembled in Japan then badged in the USA) but probably reduces any reasale value!

This is one of the most cost effective sensible solutions for engine replacements I have seen on these forums. So many times it seems diesel engine replacement costs have been the end of a boat's life or a cruiser's dream. I've seen anything from $15K to $25K to replace a diesel engine- that can deplete a kitty fast. Industrial or Ag diesels in the 20-40 hp range cost in the order of $3K to $5K and there are plenty of generic water to water heat exchangers and custom combo exhaust manifold/ cooling water exhaust ones from $100 to $600. I personally hate the engine driven raw water pumps with flexible impeller with its limited life and seal leakage issues- I'd much sooner install a 12v variable speed magnetic drive water pump at around $100 with 1000's of hours life - yes they are not self-priming and need to below waterline but what part of the engine compartment of a sailboat is not below waterline.
As far a DIY - the first 2 books a sailboat owner needs are Calder's manuals on Maintenance and on Diesel Engines

[wingssail]

It seems like there are a lot of different experiences out there.

For us, our maintenance cost for 43' sloop are currently running north of $700 per month plus some annual costs which amount to about $3000. We do virtually everything ourselves but we live aboard and we use the boat anywhere from 50 days to 150 days a year. It gets a lot of use and we leave nothing broken or non-functional on the boat. If something breaks or is worn we fix it or replace it at once. Maybe our costs are slightly high. You could save a lot if you just let things go, and stay tied to the dock because the boat is not ready to go.

So that is over $11,000 per year. Our boat cost us $90,000, 32 years ago. So we're spending 12.5%. However, the rule of thumb I follow is that the maintenance costs are about 10-15% of the original cost of the boat, in my case $125,000, (we bought it used) so that would be pretty close.

These costs are fixing broken things and doing preventative maint. Berthing, insurance, fuel are not included in those figures. Further, we have done major refits three times at an average cost of $35,000. So that is another $100,000, divided into 32 years, $3000/year.

And, since we race the boat we have spent quite a bit over the years on racing sails in addition to the cruising sails which got us around the world, and these have also since been replaced. Sails, if you are keen to sail, are a regular expense. The racing sails are not included in the maintenance costs I quoted above.

So, to the OP, whatever you spend on that boat, be prepared to pour additional money into it on an ongoing basis. If you love the boat, and love sailing, you won't begrudge the boat the money you spend on her, but you better be sure that boating, sailing, and boat maintenance are your thing.

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by wingssail

It seems like there are a lot of different experiences out there.

For us, our maintenance cost for 43' sloop are currently running north of $700 per month plus some annual costs which amount to about $3000. We do virtually everything ourselves but we live aboard and we use the boat anywhere from 50 days to 150 days a year. It gets a lot of use and we leave nothing broken or non-functional on the boat. If something breaks or is worn we fix it or replace it at once. Maybe our costs are slightly high. You could save a lot if you just let things go, and stay tied to the dock because the boat is not ready to go.

So that is over $11,000 per year. Our boat cost us $90,000, 32 years ago. So we're spending 12.5%. However, the rule of thumb I follow is that the maintenance costs are about 10-15% of the original cost of the boat, in my case $125,000, (we bought it used) so that would be pretty close.

These costs are fixing broken things and doing preventative maint. Berthing, insurance, fuel are not included in those figures. Further, we have done major refits three times at an average cost of $35,000. So that is another $100,000, divided into 32 years, $3000/year.

And, since we race the boat we have spent quite a bit over the years on racing sails in addition to the cruising sails which got us around the world, and these have also since been replaced. Sails, if you are keen to sail, are a regular expense. The racing sails are not included in the maintenance costs I quoted above.

So, to the OP, whatever you spend on that boat, be prepared to pour additional money into it on an ongoing basis. If you love the boat, and love sailing, you won't begrudge the boat the money you spend on her, but you better be sure that boating, sailing, and boat maintenance are your thing.

Is this the same Fred and Judy on Wings that chuck and patty on SoulMates that we ran across in I think Trini? and now in Mexico? I throught USA was in your plans?

[john61ct]

And if you weren't DIYers, would be **lots** more per year.

But yes will be very different % for different boats / owners / locations.

That's why it's called a rule of thumb, aka ballpark, guideline

[mako]

Originally Posted by NYSail

Also remember, I have friends that don’t have boats and they go on at least two 1 week vacations per year..... not including kids this easily could be equal to $20,000. Last year wife and I spent over 100 nights on the boat (joys of heat). Add day sails, night sails and I think I am getting a bargain. Every dime I spend on my boat is well worth it and not a loss....... in my mind.

Very good point. Thanks!

[Davy J]

Another thread by a "dreamer".......... The OP hasn't responded in days. Yet you guys go on debating the details....

Yes owning a boat is expensive, dreamers shouldn't participate unless prepared for thousands of dollars of expenses, unavoidable expenses....

If you expect that living on a boat is less expensive than land based life....
you are in for a new reality....

[john61ct]

It very much can be, but as always "it depends"

[mako]

Originally Posted by Davy J

Another thread by a "dreamer".......... The OP hasn't responded in days. Yet you guys go on debating the details....

That happens alot on these threads. The OP leaves because he got his answer, is busy in life, is a troll, etc. But these threads go on for pages because of the interesting discussions between members. Do you remember that troll thread about flamethrowers? It was obviously a big joke, or the OP was, but it has gone on for pages. Crazy

[john61ct]

And that's fine, OP's needs likely satisfied, regulars entertain and inform, not just each other but hundreds of lurkers and future googlers.

Site gets traffic stats, boosts advertising revenue, everyone wins.

If a thread is no longer worth reading **for you** the solution is very easy, stop opening it.

[drcat]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

To give an idea I had a failure that led to needing a new engine. The quote from the USA was 12 - 15k for the engine plus 1500 delivery and at least 5k for fitting. As a DIY job fitting a Chinese engine total cost I did it for about 4k total. The Chinese engine is better quality than the US one (which in fact is mostly built in China, assembled in Japan then badged in the USA) but probably reduces any reasale value!

Any chance you could start a new thread with posting about your decision to research, purchase and install a Chinese diesel in your sailboat? Include how you imported or if you bought in N America via distributor, breakdown of costs, the issues you had to deal with and add a few pics.
As I mentioned in earlier reply, engine replacement costs seem to be the death knell of many sailboats and with catamarans you have 2 engines so double the replacement costs. I have always been surprised at the cost difference of a small ag tractor diesel in the 20-50 hp range vs a marine diesel of same hp.
As far a reducing resale, perhaps a tiny %, but not as much as selling price of boat without an engine, or you'll never get back the high added cost of installing a branded diesel. And for buyer looking to purchase a boat with only a few 1000 hrs on a diesel engine is always a plus.

[mako]

Originally Posted by drcat

I have always been surprised at the cost difference of a small ag tractor diesel in the 20-50 hp range vs a marine diesel of same hp.
As far a reducing resale, perhaps a tiny %, but not as much as selling price of boat without an engine, or you'll never get back the high added cost of installing a branded diesel. And for buyer looking to purchase a boat with only a few 1000 hrs on a diesel engine is always a plus.

I've always been surprised at the cost difference (huge markup) of marine providers in the USA for engines versus overseas. I have received quotations from Cummins in India and China and it's crazy. A brand new 6B in China is easily half or less the cost of the USA. And when you go to a Chinese brand like Roland did, or to the Weichai's that I am considering for my powerboat, it is even less.

For a sailboat I would not be too concerned about resale price. It might take longer to sell, but not necessarily a lower price. Your buyer will be thrilled to have a brand new engine onboard with a ton of spares (spares are cheap in China also). He will be more concerned about the status of your rigging and sails and winches and such.

For a powerboat however, trying to sell a boat in America with a Chinese engine would be a deal killer for most. In Europe or Asia it would not be that way, but the USA for sure. One question we all need to ask ourselves however is how important is resale to us. If this is your last boat, and you're traveling the world in it, then who cares?? Let's our kids suffer the resale malady when we are gone