Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-09-2020, 11:39   #166
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: On the boat
Boat: Chris Craft Roamer 58
Posts: 210
Re: Using a generator while on the hook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
Note: I donít have ANY metal below the waterline or a Honda EU series generator. Your anger is quite misplaced. Lol
That is commonly called an "edison plug". They are not legal and only a "hack" to prevent tripping the ground fault protector with some appliances that have a built-in ground fault.

No metal below the water line? Your engine, prop shaft, prop, seacocks are all plastic? And none of them are bonded anyway even if they're metal? Right.

People die from ESD every year from improper shore power and generator connections on boats. It's now quite obvious why that is the case.
CruisingCouple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2020, 12:04   #167
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 4,628
Re: Using a generator while on the hook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CruisingCouple View Post
That is commonly called an "edison plug". They are not legal and only a "hack" to prevent tripping the ground fault protector with some appliances that have a built-in ground fault.

No metal below the water line? Your engine, prop shaft, prop, seacocks are all plastic? And none of them are bonded anyway even if they're metal? Right.

People die from ESD every year from improper shore power and generator connections on boats. It's now quite obvious why that is the case.
Odd.... you still have not addressed the fact that anyone can correctly hook up ANY generator to have a bonded neutral. Nor have you addressed the fact that NOTHING about your water cooled generator is different than an air cooled one in terms of electrocution hazard. Completely silent on those points.

Am I to assume you think your water cooled generator is magically different from an air cooled on in terms of neutral bonding? Really??

That’s right. No prop shaft. Aluminum props are clear of the water when not in use (when generator is on at anchor or when sailing) No seacocks at all and no thruhulls below the waterline. Try again. You’re struggling to pin your anger on my boat but you have the wrong boat. LOL
Chotu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2020, 12:29   #168
JRO
Registered User
 
JRO's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: PNW
Boat: Carver 444 CPMY 47'
Posts: 35
Re: Using a generator while on the hook?

This is a scream for help.
__________________
2001 Carver 444 47' CPMY PNW
JRO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2020, 14:11   #169
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: On the boat
Boat: Chris Craft Roamer 58
Posts: 210
Re: Using a generator while on the hook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
Odd.... you still have not addressed the fact that anyone can correctly hook up ANY generator to have a bonded neutral. Nor have you addressed the fact that NOTHING about your water cooled generator is different than an air cooled one in terms of electrocution hazard. Completely silent on those points.
Ok,

What is electrically different in the marine generator is that it is electrically isolated from the loads in the system on the boat. Our particular unit is 480 three-phase for bow and stern thrusters, hydraulic power to the steering gear and electric bilge pumps (all 480 three-phase). It has isolation transformers in it, the bond is NEVER created at the generator in either a split-phase or wye-connected three-phase. The bond is done at the isolation transformers by the center tap on the transformer secondary going to the boat's bonding system. This is a standard in marine generators.

The isolation of the genset can be either with isolation transformers, or with an inverter with switched neutral switchgear that switches from boat bonding to shore power. If the inverter is used it's internal HV transformers are bonded at the center tap.

The second important thing in a marine generator is that the electric components of the genset are ignition-protected. This includes not only the genset, but also the isolation transformers, switchgears and inverter. There is no open windings, wiring or switches that can ignite fumes in the bilge. This is another marine standard.

So no, you cannot wire your portable generator to meet marine standards. The generator itself does not meet those standards. Try it, then go get a marine surveyor and see if he or she will pass it.

Our steel-hull boat is no different from any other ship on the ocean or Great Lakes that has steel hull. It has a proper bonding system in it, zero hull electrical leakage into the water. It has been tested and passed a marine survey when we did our refit over the last two years. No shortage of a wire to the hull can cause electrical leakage. The bonding system in the boat uses the ground ONLY for fault protection, never to carry a load like your edison plug does on your portable generator.

Using that is evidence of a gross misunderstanding of AC power and how ground fault protection works. Your portable generator has a GFCI breaker that provides both overload and ground fault protection. It senses the potential difference between the generator case (ground) and the conductors to detect a ground fault. You will get a shock off it if you get a ground fault, but the breaker will trip before it becomes fatal. If the case is grounded with the ground lug you won't get a shock because that is the lowest resistance path to earth ground.

This is, in no way shape or form, suitable for marine use. Go consult a marine suveyor and see what he/she says about it.
CruisingCouple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2020, 15:15   #170
Registered User
 
malbert73's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Tartan 40
Posts: 1,721
Using a generator while on the hook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueH2Obound View Post
Just for clarification, when you state "marine compliant" are you referencing a specific standard, like ABYC Standards, NEC, or some such? Are you just voicing an opinion regarding air cooled generators? I AM aware of specific requirements for permanently installed generators in boats, but the term marine compliant eludes me! Thanks in advance for helping me to further understand this!


My main objection is that those who think the portable ones are quiet arenít facing the exhaust outlet downwind. Theyíre in the cockpit facing the quiet side.
Others more expert than I in the past few posts have explained the ABYC compliance issue better than I can. Iím also not one for cheap shoestring solutions on a boat with all thatís at stake if things go wrong. A proper diesel genset is not only safer but more considerate of others if you must have one.
malbert73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2020, 16:01   #171
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 4,628
Re: Using a generator while on the hook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CruisingCouple View Post
Ok,

What is electrically different in the marine generator is that it is electrically isolated from the loads in the system on the boat. Our particular unit is 480 three-phase for bow and stern thrusters, hydraulic power to the steering gear and electric bilge pumps (all 480 three-phase). It has isolation transformers in it, the bond is NEVER created at the generator in either a split-phase or wye-connected three-phase. The bond is done at the isolation transformers by the center tap on the transformer secondary going to the boat's bonding system. This is a standard in marine generators.

The isolation of the genset can be either with isolation transformers, or with an inverter with switched neutral switchgear that switches from boat bonding to shore power. If the inverter is used it's internal HV transformers are bonded at the center tap.

The second important thing in a marine generator is that the electric components of the genset are ignition-protected. This includes not only the genset, but also the isolation transformers, switchgears and inverter. There is no open windings, wiring or switches that can ignite fumes in the bilge. This is another marine standard.

So no, you cannot wire your portable generator to meet marine standards. The generator itself does not meet those standards. Try it, then go get a marine surveyor and see if he or she will pass it.

Our steel-hull boat is no different from any other ship on the ocean or Great Lakes that has steel hull. It has a proper bonding system in it, zero hull electrical leakage into the water. It has been tested and passed a marine survey when we did our refit over the last two years. No shortage of a wire to the hull can cause electrical leakage. The bonding system in the boat uses the ground ONLY for fault protection, never to carry a load like your edison plug does on your portable generator.

Using that is evidence of a gross misunderstanding of AC power and how ground fault protection works. Your portable generator has a GFCI breaker that provides both overload and ground fault protection. It senses the potential difference between the generator case (ground) and the conductors to detect a ground fault. You will get a shock off it if you get a ground fault, but the breaker will trip before it becomes fatal. If the case is grounded with the ground lug you won't get a shock because that is the lowest resistance path to earth ground.

This is, in no way shape or form, suitable for marine use. Go consult a marine suveyor and see what he/she says about it.

Jury is out on the first half, as I’m not seeing any evidence of the Northern Lights generator I had in my last boat behaving as you say regarding internal isolation transformers. In fact, from the northern lights manual itself:

“There is no consensus of opinion on whether the neutral conductor should be connected to the bonding system (grounded) or not (floating ground). Ground-
ing the neutral may increase electrolytic corrosion. Not grounding the neutral creates a potential shock hazard. The American Boat and Yacht Council recommends grounding the neutral at the generator for safety reasons, though this may shorten the life of heat exchangers and other components. Northern Lights heartily recommends grounding the neutral since personal safety takes priority over all other considerations.
For additional electrical information, consult the AC wiring diagrams in the Generator Manual for the generator end installed on your set."

Apologies, but I’ll have to explore that one further. I see no evidence yet supporting your claims. I also see nothing denying you claims. There is just simply no mention of a Northern Lights generator having an isolation transformer in it. Still looking.

However, dead wrong on the rest of the post.

Even the EU series generators are not against any ABYC or USCG regulation as they are not contained inside any compartment and are open to the air on deck. If your argument we’re in any way correct (it sure is wordy, but without actual references to any violation), then you’d be disallowed from having a propane grill on deck too. In any case, accessories, on deck, in open air are NOT subject to any of the ABYC or USCG guidelines you’ve incorrectly applied to them in an attempt to disparage portable generators you seem to hate with gusto.

Again, I DONT HAVE ANY OF THE THINGS YOU HATE. I don’t HAVE an Edison plug. It was to make a point.

The point is, the 3 wires for a 120V leg coming out of ANY generator are exactly the same. Until you bond neutral to ground at the source, which is how you do it. An isolation transformer is an add on, which can just as easily be added on to an air cooled generator as a water cooled one.

From a power perspective, a generator is a generator. And they’re both also equivalent to an inverter. An inverter will bond neutral to ground at the source too.

Bottom line is there’s nothing different about the power coming from a portable vs a water cooled generator, other than the oomph a non portable has due to the heavy flywheel.
Chotu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2020, 16:24   #172
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: On the boat
Boat: Chris Craft Roamer 58
Posts: 210
Re: Using a generator while on the hook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
Grounding the neutral may increase electrolytic corrosion.
Not may, it will. You just created a ground loop on a boat with current flowing the ground conductor. You have no earth ground on the boat - its ground for fault protection is the boat's DC bonding system.

Please check the IEEE Part 45 standards, which the ABYC rules are based on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
Even the EU series generators are not against any ABYC or USCG regulation as they are not contained inside any compartment and are open to the air on deck.
This is correct. Let's put it this way - there is some people who have insurance on their boat because they are insurable and have a surveyed boat. Others have insurance because the insurance company doesn't know about some of the stuff they are doing on the boat.

You can do anything on a private boat that is unsafe and there is no "law" to prevent it. Whether or not your insurance will cover it is another matter. You can wire your whole boat with copper wire from AutoZone but it if catches on fire and subsequent investigation reveals it was wired with copper wire from AutoZone, no matter how perfect your wiring job was, you just entered the Club of Uninsured Boaters.

Kill somebody with your hacked generator setup and you will enter the Club of Broke Boaters when you get your ass sued off.
CruisingCouple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2020, 16:53   #173
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 4,628
Re: Using a generator while on the hook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CruisingCouple View Post
Not may, it will. You just created a ground loop on a boat with current flowing the ground conductor. You have no earth ground on the boat - its ground for fault protection is the boat's DC bonding system.

Please check the IEEE Part 45 standards, which the ABYC rules are based on.



This is correct. Let's put it this way - there is some people who have insurance on their boat because they are insurable and have a surveyed boat. Others have insurance because the insurance company doesn't know about some of the stuff they are doing on the boat.

You can do anything on a private boat that is unsafe and there is no "law" to prevent it. Whether or not your insurance will cover it is another matter. You can wire your whole boat with copper wire from AutoZone but it if catches on fire and subsequent investigation reveals it was wired with copper wire from AutoZone, no matter how perfect your wiring job was, you just entered the Club of Uninsured Boaters.

Kill somebody with your hacked generator setup and you will enter the Club of Broke Boaters when you get your ass sued off.

I apologize if you thought those were my words in the first half of your response. Those weren’t my words. That was a direct copy and paste out of the northern lights marine generator manual.

Regarding the second part, you dodged that like a politician. LOL the entire second half is about you saying that on deck generators are required to be ignition protected and all of that that you said in your previous post. It’s just not true. So in this post are you trying to tell me that if I have a non-ignition protected generator on deck, that’s a liability where I can get sued? Are you sure about that?

Look, I know you hate portable generators. You’re talking to someone who has owned both. Plenty of them. My last generator was a really nice northern lights unit. Gave me no trouble. Loved it. However, when you have a gasoline powered boat, you are going to do gasoline powered things. That’s just how it is. My current boat does have an on deck gasoline powered generator. However, the boat is not finished so it is not wired in all the way yet. It’s simply a construction generator. The AC wiring isn’t even complete. That’s a task for this winter. But, there is nothing preventing my installation from being fully ABYC compliant and certainly it complies to the US Coast Guard regulations which I refer to constantly during the process of the boat build.

You can be sure that after our discussion, I will be certain to bond the neutral and ground at the source, and use GFCI as appropriate. That’s just for on board shocks. There can’t be any shocks outside of my boat because I don’t have any conductors in the water. Seriously.So you don’t have to be afraid. Even if you hear a generator running. . LOL if you see my Catamaran pull up, you will be safe for a swim.
Chotu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2020, 17:02   #174
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Ensenada
Boat: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Posts: 1,392
Re: Using a generator while on the hook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
I have a very difficult situation coming up soon.

I have to run the generator, a construction generator but a quiet one, every single day all day long. Not at night or anything, but all day long for working on the interior of my boat. Plenty of tablesaw running and circular saw running also.

Otherwise, itís too hot to get anything done. Iím in a harbor with probably a dozen other boats. We are all fairly close by, but itís many boat lengths from one to the next.

The harbormaster said everything is just fine. Just donít run it after 10 PM. I still feel bad, and I did get one complaint last year. More like a passive aggressive comment. Not a true complaint.

It stinks, but I donít really have a choice about this. There is no power available and this is what I have to do. Everyone in the harbor runs a generator, but they donít have to run it all day long. I feel bad about running mine all day long.

Should I feel bad?
Chotu - no solar? A good friend is building an off grid cabin 40 miles in the Wyoming mountains. He had planned on a generator, but I went up and installed two 275w solar panels, two 6v golf cart batteries, a decent victron MPPT controller, and a 2000w PSW inverter. He's run all sorts of power tools including table saw for yep dimmers now. No generator needed. He even makes Nespresso coffee a couple times a day.

He does have to be careful about running multiple tools simultaneously, but overall, has worked really well.

Peter
mvweebles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2020, 17:17   #175
JRO
Registered User
 
JRO's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: PNW
Boat: Carver 444 CPMY 47'
Posts: 35
Re: Using a generator while on the hook?

marine compliant eludes me! Thanks in advance for helping me to further understand this![/QUOTE]

Asking an idiot clock maker, ďWhat time is it?Ē
JRO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2020, 17:17   #176
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 4,628
Re: Using a generator while on the hook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
Chotu - no solar? A good friend is building an off grid cabin 40 miles in the Wyoming mountains. He had planned on a generator, but I went up and installed two 275w solar panels, two 6v golf cart batteries, a decent victron MPPT controller, and a 2000w PSW inverter. He's run all sorts of power tools including table saw for yep dimmers now. No generator needed. He even makes Nespresso coffee a couple times a day.

He does have to be careful about running multiple tools simultaneously, but overall, has worked really well.

Peter
Yes. Most of the tools will run solar. I do have half the solar installed already. I plan to do as much as I can on solar. However, when the heat spikes, I’ve got to use the air conditioning to keep productivity up.

I have 700 W already up. I have another 700 W of solar to put in. I have to upgrade my inverter as well. That’s part of the work this winter. I have a junky modified sine wave in there right now.

I think I just share the same type of feelings that Mike O’Riley does. Even putting the generator on for two hours makes me feel guilty and that I’m intruding on other peoples sanity. I don’t like doing it.

As the boat is coming together, it is strictly for HVAC purposes. Nothing else. That’s the only reason I will run the generator.
Chotu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2020, 17:41   #177
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Ensenada
Boat: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Posts: 1,392
Re: Using a generator while on the hook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
Yes. Most of the tools will run solar. I do have half the solar installed already. I plan to do as much as I can on solar. However, when the heat spikes, Iíve got to use the air conditioning to keep productivity up.

I have 700 W already up. I have another 700 W of solar to put in. I have to upgrade my inverter as well. Thatís part of the work this winter. I have a junky modified sine wave in there right now.

I think I just share the same type of feelings that Mike OíRiley does. Even putting the generator on for two hours makes me feel guilty and that Iím intruding on other peoples sanity. I donít like doing it.

As the boat is coming together, it is strictly for HVAC purposes. Nothing else. Thatís the only reason I will run the generator.
That makes sense. My friends cabin is at 8500 ft elevation. I don't think there's a household AC in the county. As a matter of fact, I think he sent a note that it was supposed to be 10 degrees F today with snow.
mvweebles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2020, 17:57   #178
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Rochester, NY
Boat: Chris Craft Catalina 381
Posts: 1,713
Re: Using a generator while on the hook?

As far as ignition protection, a built in gasoline marine generator will be ignition protected. A diesel unit typically won't be (and isn't required to be).

I can also confirm that there are no internal isolation transformers in my older marine Onan generator.
rslifkin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2020, 18:13   #179
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 4,628
Re: Using a generator while on the hook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
That makes sense. My friends cabin is at 8500 ft elevation. I don't think there's a household AC in the county. As a matter of fact, I think he sent a note that it was supposed to be 10 degrees F today with snow.
Yes. I’m looking at 90F+ , 100% humidity, little to no wind and a boat that has no hatches installed yet, but still has a huge greenhouse for a deckhouse. Ugh. Ha ha
Chotu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2020, 18:32   #180
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: On the boat
Boat: Chris Craft Roamer 58
Posts: 210
Re: Using a generator while on the hook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
So in this post are you trying to tell me that if I have a non-ignition protected generator on deck, thatís a liability where I can get sued? Are you sure about that?.
This would depend on if it blows your boat up and causes property damage to nearby boats or infrastructure.

The ABYC standard states that any permanently installed generator must be ignition protected. Its location of installation does not make any difference.

Like I said, it would be best to consult a marine surveyor. Eventually, if you sell the boat and the potential buyer's insurance requires a survey done, you will be money ahead to do it right the first time.
CruisingCouple is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
generator

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Portable Generator Hook-up Sergy Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 5 07-09-2020 12:38
Sizing battery charger for AGM and Generator On-the-hook chollapete Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 20 17-08-2018 23:56
Work While on the Hook or in Port... mrnurseskiguy Liveaboard's Forum 1 26-02-2014 07:06
Laundry Aboard While on the Hook off-the-grid Liveaboard's Forum 86 26-01-2012 17:36
Any Advice on Using a Window Air Conditioner While at the Dock ? rnjpinz Construction, Maintenance & Refit 9 03-10-2010 12:59

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:57.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.